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On going back to the Original Bible, after all these Revisions.

The Douay-Rheims is the English translation of the original Vulgate, the world's first one-book Bible, put together by St. Jerome around 400 A.D. From now on, this is my Bible of reference.

Vic Biorseth, Tuesday, July 04, 2017
http://www.CatholicAmericanThinker.com/

This webpage was inspired by a comment from Annemarie on the Protestant Mass page. Specifically, her recommendation to compare the wording of Gen 3:15 in the New American (used in the Novus Ordo) with the King James Version and the Douay-Rheims. Here they are:

Genesis 3:

New American:  
[15] And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

King James:
[15] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Douay-Rheims:
[15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heal. 

The New American translation looks pretty Protestant to me.  

This brought back memories of sometimes heated arguments I had with professors and lecturers at the Athenaeum of Ohio during the LPMP program, much of which I wrote about, mostly among the various Cafeteria Catholic pages. The whole program used the New American.  

One argument revolved round Luke 1:28, which was to become the beginning line of the Hail Mary. I didn't like the New American translation. Again, here they are for comparison:

Luke 1:

New American:
[28] And coming in, he said to her,'Greetings, favored one! The Lord [is] with you.

King James:
[28]And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that are highly favoured, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.

Douay-Rheims:
[28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

I challenged the New American translation in class. With almost insufferable professorial condescension my argument was dismissed as juvenile and without merit, and not worthy of further discussion. The Church was just getting with the times, and today most people didn't even understand that old language.  

But the fact remains that a whole Catholic theology is built up around the phrase "full of grace". That is a truly unique greeting and a truly unique title. It means full-to-the-brim, can't-hold-any-more, no-room-for-sin. It is unique. Should we then take the professorial interpretation to the extent of changing the words of the Hail Mary from "Hail Mary, full of grace" to be "Hail Mary, favored one"?  

If Catholics no longer understand the meaning of the words "full of grace" then I contend that that is the fault of the Catholic Bishops whose sole responsibility it is to correctly teach the faith to the faithful.  

Anyway, what Annemarie's comment has led me to is a change in Bibles. For a number of years now I have used the Revised Standard Version (RSV) as being the most true-to-original modern translation around. Just about all the Scripture quotes you see anywhere in this site are taken word-for-word from the RSV. But from now on I intend to use the Douay Rheims. It is the word-for-word English translation of the Vulgate, the only Bible ever approved by the Church, at the Council of Trent.  

The Latin Vulgate came into being around 400 A.D., was in continuous use by the Church, and was finally "approved" at Trent. It contains all the Old Testament books thrown out by the Jews at the Jewish Council of Jamnia, and later thrown out by Martin Luther in his German Bible, which was a plagiarism of the pre-existing German translation known as the Codex Templensis.  

The Protestant claim that Luther was first to translate the Bible into German is a lie. The Codex Templensis predates Luther's by hundreds of years, and whole chapters and books are absolutely word-for-word the same, as though copied. Although Luther left out the books he didn't want. The Codex Templensis was one of many non-Latin translations done for the Clergy, so that they could preach more directly to the people without pausing to correctly translate words or whole phrases.  

To set the record straight, in those days, if anyone could not read Latin, they couldn't read, period, in any language. This is because Latin had already supplanted Greek as the language of formal education. All education was done in Latin; therefore, the first thing any student had to learn before he learned anything else, was Latin. Every subject was taught in Latin. Including other languages. If you wanted to learn German, you first had to learn Latin, and your Latin teacher would teach you, in Latin, how to speak, read and write in German.  

It bears repeating: if you couldn't read Latin, then you couldn't read at all

The Vulgate was written in Latin, the "vulgar language" meaning, the language of the masses. Everybody spoke Latin, although everyone couldn't necessarily read it. That's why St. Jerome wrote the Vulgate in Latin.  

He translated the Septuagint, written in Greek, into Latin to make the Old Testament part of the Vulgate. And he translated all of the Gospels, Acts and the Epistles into Latin for the New Testament.  

As much as I love the RSV, I'm going back to the Douay-Rheims, to be closer to the original and only approved version, the Latin Vulgate.  

Protestants sing "Gimme that old time religion".  

I want to sing "Gimme that old time Catholicism" and "Gimme that old time Revelation", un-translated, un-interpreted, and un-spun.  

And especially, un-Protestantized.  

Seek the Truth; find the Way; live the Life. Please God, and live forever.



=====

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PEWAG3 Punctuated Equilibrium's Wild-Assed Guess
TTRSTF4 Them There Real Scientifical-Type Fellers
TTRSPTF5 Them There Real Smart Perfesser-Type Fellers
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Date:  Tue Jul 04 12:01:54 2017
From:  Annemarie
Email:   
Location:  
Comment: 

You cannot believe how excited I am to be mentioned in your blog!! However, I think there's a wee bit typo in your Douay Rheims verse. It should read I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: SHE shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

In my local NO church that I used to attend there is Our Lady of Grace crushing the serpent's head. Beautiful image, but so confusing for those who have actually never read the Douay Rheims version.

Thank you again!  :D


Date:  Tue Jul 04 2017
From:  Vic Biorseth
Comment:  

Annemarie:

Right you are!  

I used an on-line cross-reference site (Biblos.com) that shows verses as shown in various Bible versions, and I mistook DBY to stand for Douay-Rheims. DBY actually sands for Darby. Biblos.com doesn't even have a Douay-Rheims, nor does it even have an RSV.  Maybe it has an aversion to Catholicism.  

Your comment made me pull my old Douay-Rheims off the shelf and dust it off. You were right on the money. Then I went to DRBO.org and got the real thing on-line.  

Thank you so much!  I have corrected it on the webpage. 

A footnote refering to 3 Gen 15 talks about whether Jesus or Mary crushes Satan's head:

"[15] "She shall crush": Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, comformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent's head."

Regards,

Vic


Date:  Tue Jul 04 15:08:26 2017
From:  Seppe
Email:   eccoseppe@gmail.com
Location:  Bellevue/Ohio/USA
Comment: 

I agree that the New American Bible & the newly revised version of it are more "protestant" than Catholic...

Are you familiar with the ORIGINAL Douay-Rheims version (NT-1582 and OT-1609 & 1610) that Bishop Challoner later revised... The changes introduced by him [Bishop Challoner] were so considerable that, according to Cardinal Newman, they almost amounted to a new translation. So, also, Cardinal Wiseman wrote, 'To call it any longer the Douay or Rheimish Version is an abuse of terms. It has been altered and modified until scarcely any verse remains as it was originally published.' In nearly every case Challoner's changes took the form of approximating to the Authorized Version [King James]. . ."

Read more about it out here >

www.realdouayrheims.com

and also here >

www.churchlatin.com/douayrheims.aspx

I purchased the Original Rheims New Testament (from ChurchLatin.com)several years ago and it's amazing to read the *original* English translation of the Latin and study the notes and commentary that are now corruptly *modernized*...


Date:  Tue July 04 2017
From:  Vic Biorseth
Comment:  

Seppe:

No, this is all new to me.  

Regards,

Vic


Date:  Wed Jul 05 2017
From:  Vic Biorseth
Comment:  

Seppe:

I'm not so sure your statements about the Challoner Revision are completely accurate.  Looking at an 1859 critical comparison shows that the changes, to my eye, did not change the meaning, but perhaps made it more understandable in the English of the day. Which is what the Vulgate itself was intended to do.  

The places where Challoner's Revision disagreed with the original Douay seemed to not change the Catholic interpretation, but the language, from older Old English to newer Old English. It must be admitted that the King James, while erroneous in many places, as a work of English literature, is an absolute masterpiece of the English of that day.  

I am no scholar and certainly no linguist, but the verses compared in the linked critical analysis seem to me to be aimed at making the original thoughts better understood. Not to comply with any Protestant theology.  

So you can say that this verse or that agrees more with the Protestant Bible than the Catholic, but if the properly understood thought behind the words was still Catholic, that criticism only testifies to the fact that so many parts of the Protestant Bible of the day agreed with the Catholic.  

Does anybody more knowledgeable have anything to say here?  

Regards,

Vic


Date:  Wed Jul 05 20:31:52 2017
From:  Seppe
Email:   
Location:  
Comment: 

Actually, the statements about the Challoner revision by Cardinal John Henry Newman and Cardinal Wiseman are quoted from Dr. William G. von Peters, as found in the linked article.

Your point about linguistic style vs theological substance seems to be valid in the verses cited. I would like to ask EWTN's Fr. Mitch Pacwa for his  opinion on the original vs. Bishop Challoner's version.

Another excellent on-line resource which displays parallel texts for the Vulgate, Douay-Rheims, and Knox translation can be found here >

http://catholicbible.online/

The recent modernist/progressive translations seem to be moving toward an inclusive-language, non-denominational *church of nice* version...

God bless, Seppe


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