Christendom and Protestant America’s Apostasy into Paganism

Apostacy Into Paganism

A Timeline

Linda Kimball, Tuesday, May 21, 2024

In the meticulously researched book, “Politicizing the Bible,” research historians Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker dig deep into the Middle Ages and Renaissance to show that Christendom’s long term apostasy began with the appropriation, deconstruction and paganization of scripture by politically motivated interpreters.  Among them were early Popes, Machiavelli, Marsilio of Padua, Henry VIII, Thomas Hobbes, and Descartes and Spinoza, who sought an empire of science. 

The authors argue that nothing can be rightly understood about the post-Christian West’s still unfolding apostasy, the historical-critical method taken for granted at modern divinity schools worldwide, evolutionary science and the paganization of Scripture if close attention is not paid to the great cosmological shift away from the supernatural Genesis account ex nihilo to an anti-supernatural and wholly evolutionary pagan or secular understanding of the universe, the Triune God, man, philosophy, science, and morality that occurred in the seventeenth century.

The Catholic philosopher and research historian Thomas Molnar (1921–2010), reveals that by the time of the Renaissance, certain highly placed, influential Christian theologians, mystics and scholars at the highest levels of the church had discovered ancient Egyptian Hermetic magic and occult Jewish Kabbalah texts from the time of Babylon which they studied and translated, resulting in Hermetic Kabbalah. Then like Pico della Mirandola, they argued that occult hermetic science – the divine technology or Magic Way of reaching divine status and spiritual powers through ritual procedures such as transcendental meditation is the best proof of the divinity of Christ as a divine force of nature.

In other word’s said Molnar,

“ the time of the Renaissance the esoteric texts of the first centuries A.D. had acquired in scholarly and humanist circles an unparalleled prestige, confronting as equals the texts held sacred by the church. In Pico’s estimation, ‘nulla est scientia que nos magis certificet de divinitate Christ quam magia et Cabala’ (there is no science that would prove for us Christ’s divinity better than magic and the Cabala.)” (“God and the Knowledge of Reality, pp. 78-79)

The apostasy into evolutionary paganism grew, mainly out of sight, until it exploded into view during the eighteenth and nineteenth century’s.  In his classic work “Earth’s Earliest Ages” (pub.1876) the English theologian GH Pember (1837-1910) described Protestant heretics and apostates “of this nineteenth century” as returning to the occult wisdom traditions of “long past, and modern thought sustaining its flight upon the wings of ancient lore.”

Almost every characteristic of antiquity seems to be returning:

“Open intercourse with demons is being renewed on a vast scale in the very heart of Christendom…numerous circles are carrying on magical practices (and the) ancient Mysteries (are being restored together with) mesmeric healings…astrology…and other practices….And, impossible as it would have seemed a few years ago, all these ‘superstitions’ are floating back….upon the tide of ‘modern thought.” They come no longer veiled in mystery, “but in accordance with the spirit of the age, present themselves as the fruit of science…progress….and evolutionary philosophy.” (Earth’s Earliest Ages, G.H. Pember, pp. 243, 245)

The ominous signs of this age are obvious, said Pember in another of his books, “The Antichrist Babylon and the Coming Kingdom.” Just as it was during the pre-flood generations, spiritism (open intercourse with demons) is now common throughout Christendom and even in Russia. In France it is the national pastime. The Protestant apostles of the powers of darkness are everywhere proclaiming their scientific and evolutionary theories demonstrating that the world created itself and had no need of a Creator while the miseries which have resulted from sin,

“…are blasphemously charged upon the Almighty, Who so loved the world as to give His son for it (but is now) impiously forbidden to curb and discipline the rebels who owe their existence to the breath of His mouth. And when we see such men as John Stuart Mill (and) John Morley, the late Chief Secretary for Ireland…guiding their fellows to defiant insubordination, we can scarcely wonder that Bradlaugh…said, ‘This world might have been happy, had not the shadow of God fallen upon it.” (pp. 35-36, 60, 1888)

The secular research historian James Webb, author of The Occult Underground, summarizes the terrible consequences of the growing apostasy.  He observes that morally informed reason had died sometime before 1865 and this opened the door to the age of the irrational (autonomous feelings).   Bereft of assurances of immortality after so great an attack on biblical revelation, masses of hopeless people were left, “begging for a revelation which was scientifically demonstrable.” (p.222)

Their need was eventually answered by various forms of neo-pagan socialism, including Karl Marx’s messianic Communism and Hitler’s Nazi Socialism advertised as the longed-for “scientifically demonstrable” revelations that when actualized would result in a heaven on earth.

Research historians, Norman and Jeanne MacKenzie write that the first socialists had almost all been lapsed Anglicans from Evangelical homes who became dignitaries in the Church of England.   For all of them, socialism was the new evangelization:

“There was a Christian fringe to the London socialism of the eighties, but this too was Anglican. The Christian Socialists came together in Stewart Headlam’s Guild of St. Matthew and the Land Reform Union; and the more respectable Christian Social Union, formed in 1889 – seeking in Fabian style to permeate the Anglican Church – soon attracted more than two thousand clerical members. Dissenting clergymen too began to find a place in the Fabian Society and the London Progressives, while Unitarian churches and centres like Stanton Coit’s Ethical Church provided a meeting place for believers and idealist agnostics.”  “Socialism was for all of them, the new Evangelism.” (Norman and Jeanne MacKenzie, The Fabians, 1977, p. 18)

The failure of the Anglican hierarchy to repudiate apostatizing higher critics and radical freethinkers scandalized faithful, orthodox Evangelicals whose outraged response was considered reactionary by the intellectually arrogant scholarly community. In 1861, apostate Benjamin Jowett and six liberal Churchmen published a volume entitled Essays and Reviews in which they expressed alarm lest,

“…the majority of Churchmen, by holding fast the narrow, fundamental beliefs, should estrange themselves more and more from contemporary thought.” (The Founders of Psychical Research, Alan Gauld, p. 49)

The portents of apostasy in the Church of England were ominous:

“It seemed to conservative Christians quite appalling that at a time when the impregnable rock of Holy Scripture was being undermined by Darwin and his allies, a group of those whose sacred duty should have been to shore it up again had conspired to hammer their wedges not under it but into it.” (p. 50)

Gauld records the rapid decline in faith among younger Cambridge men was due to skepticism based on science, evolution, and the historical critical method:

“the outstanding Cambridge intellectuals of the 1870’s – the Trinity group centering on Henry Sidgwick and Henry Jackson and including Frederic Myers, G. W. and A. J. Balfour, Walter Leaf, Edmund Gurney, Arthur Verrall, F. W. Maitland, Henry Butcher and George Prothero – tended towards agnosticism or hesitant Deism.” (Gauld, p. 64)

In this same period a group of young dons from Trinity College, Cambridge, turned to spiritism and paranormal research (study of the spirit dimension) as a substitute for their lost Evangelical faith:

” In February 1882, Podmore took Pease to a meeting at which this group founded the Society for Psychical Research . . . Among those who founded the SPR were Henry Sidgwick, Arthur Balfour – later a conservative Prime Minister – and his brother, Gerald.” (The Fabians, p. 18)

The original group that established the Society for Psychical Research in England,

” was centered around the figure of a leading Cambridge Apostle named Sir Henry Sidgewick, professor of moral philosophy at Cambridge and close collaborator of Sir William Crookes, where the duo spent a decade carrying out scientific experiments on ghosts and mediums.” (The Occult Tesla Part 10, Matthew Ehret, matthewehret.substack)

The parent of America’s modern progressivism is the socialist Fabian Society which in turn spawned the Cambridge University spiritist group, the Ghost Society, founded in 1851. In turn, the Ghost Society spawned the Society for Psychical Research (SPR) founded in 1887:

“Council Members and Honorary Members of the SPR included a past Prime Minister (William Gladstone)…and a future Prime Minister (Arthur Balfour)…2 bishops; and Tennyson and Ruskin, two of the outstanding literary figures of the day(as well as) Lewis Carroll (and) a surprising number of titled persons.” (Gauld, p. 140)

By the early 20th century, the neo-pagan materialist Sigmund Freud and heavily demonized Gnostic pagan occultist Carl Jung were SPR Corresponding Members. Both men contributed to the S.P.R. Journal of Proceedings.

Secular and Christian research historians of the nineteenth century largely agree that the dominant figures in the occult spiritist/socialist movements were Christian--mainly Protestant, Evangelical and Anglican clergymen. The onslaught of skepticism, ridicule, atheism, agnosticism, higher Biblical criticism, moral relativism, Darwinism and occult New Age spirituality assaulting the tattered foundations of Christendom and Protestant America were inspired in large part by Protestant/Evangelical heresy together with an unhealthy interest in Spiritism. Norman and Jeanne MacKenzie explain this strange anomaly:

“The lesson instilled by Evangelical parents had been given a secular form. Evolution or what (Sidney) Webb called Zeitgeist, had taken the place of Providence, yet what Webb described as ‘blind social forces’…which went on inexorably working out social salvation’ did not relieve men of their moral responsibility. Victorian religion had taught that a belief in God’s purposes must be accompanied by an effort to discern and advance them. Socialists who substituted a secular religion for the faith of their youth felt the same compulsion.” (Norman and Jeanne MacKenzie, The Fabians, 1977, p. 115-116)

Modernism Enters the Roman Catholic Church

Shortly after the turn of the century, Pope Pius X sounded the alarm that progressive “thinking” was taking hold of the contemporary mind, and in that way taking possession of Western civilization and Catholic laity and priests. The Pope defined progressivism and its primary doctrine evolution as “Modernism” and in 1907 declared it a heresy in the encyclical ‘Pascendi Dominici Gregis.”

The Pope noted that Modernist heretics were claiming that Christ is in us (pantheism) and that through evolution a Christ-force progressed and/or emanated from nature spontaneously and of itself.  Since evolution implies continuous change or progress, heretics claim that the Lord’s immutable (unchanging) truths do not exist, therefore there is nothing immutable in the Bible or the Christian Church. All are subject to change since everything is infused with impersonal divine spirit, power, intent, determinism (fate), and motion. Thus, claim heretics, religion itself lives and evolves, and must in fact be changed.

Apostate change-agents further claim that all religions and belief systems are true because the divine-force suffuses and energizes all things. By extension of this perverse reasoning, both America’s Constitution and Gaia (earth) are alive, and Gnosticism, Satanism, Wicca, Theosophy, Islam and Sharia are true. This is syncretism (subjectivism), the uniting of good and evil, truth and lie, the holy and the unholy.

R.J. Rushdoony comments:

“Now syncretism is destructive of the human mind, of rationality (A) man who wants to unite good and evil…has lost the capacity for clear thinking. His mind is darkened, clouded, fuzzed over, and incompetent…Man, by presuming to be god, has by that act destroyed the possibility of true thinking; from so radically false a premise, no valid conclusion can follow.” (“Why Is Rick Warren Waffling?” Lee Duigon, Chalcedon)

Fifteen years after the Pope sounded the alarm, the liberal (evolutionary pantheist) theologian Harry Emerson Fosdick pleaded for tolerance of more liberal views of Christianity at the First Presbyterian Church of New York City on May 21, 1922.  According to Fosdick, it is no longer necessary to believe in the sovereignty of the Triune God in history, the virgin birth, the inerrant Bible, or special creation and the Fall, hence Original Sin.  Accept evolutionary science, said Fosdick.  It can be received by the visible church without harm as can pluralism (all ways lead to ‘heaven’).

This message, with printing financed by New World Order globalist John D. Rockefeller, was sent out to 130,000 pastors and leaders. Its title was changed to “The New Knowledge and the Christian Faith.”

In response to Fosdick’s plea for tolerance the Rev. Clarence McCartney of Arch Street Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania responded on July 13, 1922 with a sermon entitled “Shall Unbelief Win?”   In his summary of the points raised by Fosdick, McCartney said if they were valid then Christianity would be a Christianity of the opinions of men, and the principles and good purposes they favor leading to a Christianity without worship, a Christianity without God, and a Christianity without Jesus Christ.  Theological liberalism, said McCartney, is progressively transforming the church into a secular institution.  (“Shall Unbelief Win?” 

In our own time progressive transformers no longer plead for tolerance but rather, like Pope Francis, brazenly chastise the faithful for not embracing anti-Christ, anti-Biblical, anti-creation evolution while pastor Rob Bell boasts of reinventing Christianity as a neo-pagan Eastern spirituality and Evangelical leader Leonard Sweet claims to use quantum physics to ‘scientifically’ prove that Jehovah is ‘in’ everything (pantheism).

Not to be outdone, progressive former President Obama used our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to justify the pagan ideal, androgyny and/or gender-neutrality:

“[W]hen we think about our faith, the thing at root that we think about is not only Christ sacrificing Himself on our behalf, but it’s also the golden rule — treat others the way you’d want to be treated.” (Using Christian faith to justify ‘LGBT Pride Month’, Charlie Butts, OneNews Now)

In Jeremiah 36:22-24 we read that beginning with the priests and prophets, the people were led to rebel against the message from God:

“And it came to pass that, when Jehudi had read three or four columns, the king cut it with a scribe’s knife and threw it into the fire that was in the brazier, until all the scroll was consumed in the fire that was in the brazier.”    Jeremiah is dismayed and astonished that they can take the Word of God, cut it up with a knife, cast it into the fire, and burn it until the message is totally consumed.  Shocked by their actions he said, “…neither the king nor any of his servants who heard all these words was afraid, nor did they tear their garments” You have forsaken the Lord your God, said Jeremiah, and now “your evil will chastise you, and your apostasy will reprove you.  Know and see that it is evil and bitter for you to forsake the Lord your God: the fear of me is not in you, declares the Lord God of hosts.” (Jeremiah 2:19)

This is a picture of Christendom’ and Protestant America’s apostasy into paganism.  Though none of the heretics and apostates from the Middle Ages to our own time burned the Word of God they nevertheless destroy it in the way they deal with it.

Francis Schaeffer comments:

“They destroy it by not reading it as written in normal literary form, by ignoring historical grammatical exegesis, by changing the Bible’s own perspective of itself as propositional revelation in space and time, in history, by saying only the ‘spiritual’ portions of the Bible have authority for us.”  (Death in the City, p. 78)

They destroy the Word of God because their desire is to be on what they falsely perceive to be the scientifically enlightened winning side. They are “lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God” who desire the things of this world: lofty position, prestige, power, applause and trappings of scientific and religious prestige:

“There is no one who claims that there is no God who is not infected by carnal desire or a lust for earthly power or the delightful madness of some showy spectacle.  They love such temporal things and seek their happiness in them.  They pursue the earthy objects of their desire wherever they lead and fear anyone who seems to have the power to take them away.” (Augustine, On True Religion, 38, 69)

Thus, they fear and loathe faithful defenders of the Revealed Word and special creation and this is why they are at least as hostile and intolerant if not more so toward faithful defenders than are their evolutionary atheist and occult pantheist counterparts.

Over and across the entire Western church, from Roman Catholic to Protestant and Orthodox, it is the faithful truth-tellers, pro-lifers, and other defenders of the faith who stand unmoving against the heresy and apostasy of theological liberalism and its primary doctrine evolution.  Thus, they are thrown into jail for defending life and harshly criticized, ridiculed, condemned and demonized as haters, bigots, and homophobes whose rejection of the phony evolutionary science that the scientifically enlightened apostates say is textbook evidence,

“…of an unyielding ignorance on the part of the religious.” (Total Capitulation: The Evangelical Surrender of Truth, Dr. Mohler, October 25, 2011)

The contemporary organized church has for the most part capitulated and is therefore torn with strife, distrust and chaos.  Capitulation is deadly to the church because it kills belief by requiring that the external forms of religion be maintained but their substance be discarded. This is practical atheism, said R.C. Sproul:

“Practical atheism appears when we live as if there were no God. The externals continue, but man becomes the central thrust of devotion as the attention of religious concern shifts away from man’s devotion to God to man’s devotion to man, bypassing God. The “ethic” of Christ continues in a superficial way, having been ripped from its supernatural, transcendent, and divine foundation.” (“What is Practical Atheism?” R.C. Sproul, Ligonier, Jan. 12, 2015)

When men make themselves the central thrust of devotion they no longer know what they have lost, much less that they themselves are lost, for though they have a pretense of godliness, they deny “the power thereof; from such turn away.” (2 Tim. 3:5)

This verse largely concerns apostate theologians of our day. They profess a false Christianity, a scientifically enlightened, evolutionary pantheist nature religion that observes the outward forms of godliness (God and Christ words, religion, church buildings, sacraments, vestments, religious services, good works), but reject its supernatural power, that is, the Triune God of Revelation, special creation, Original Sin, Jesus Christ God incarnate (John 1:1), the resurrection, second coming, miracles, regeneration, judgment, heaven, and hell.

2 Tim. 3:5 is a warning urgently needed by wavering, yet still faithful, Bible-believing Christians, be they Roman Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise. If they finally capitulate to the constant pressure brought to bear against them, they will ultimately surrender to damnable apostates. Rather than compromising with heretics and apostates, as many Christians today are inclined to do, Paul warns: “From such turn away!”

Judgment and Forgiveness

Beginning with the Roman Catholic church destructive forces were unleashed that were later taken up and acted upon by the Protestant, Evangelical, and Anglican churches. Though the entirety of the Western church bears guilt, for hundreds of years Roman Catholic and Protestants have acted as if their own church bears no individual guilt and seeing only the guilt of the other have been divided against each other, throwing punches, and accusing each other of heresy over sins committed by the entire church going back hundreds of years

While the divided Western church has been fighting against itself, Satan and his legions have been free to undermine and destroy the foundations of our civilization, harvest unknown numbers of souls, and launch a forceful spiritual attack against Christ’s Church. Christendom and Protestant America have fallen and been transformed into a hellscape.

The entirety of the church is responsible for the decayed and withered condition of today’s church and the subsequent fall of Christendom and Protestant America and it is time for the faithful remnant to forgive and forget, to hold out the hand of fellowship, and then united as brothers and sisters in Christ defend Christ’s Church, and the faith once given.

The day is late and the time is right now for repentance and reconciliation:

“For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?” 1 Peter 4:17

The Western church must forgive, forget, and stand together if the church is to successfully engage the spiritual warfare of our time:

“If you forgive people their sins, your Father in heaven will forgive your sins also. If you do not forgive people their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.  Matthew 6: 14-15

2024 @ Linda Kimball 

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EENS:  Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
(Outside the Church there is no salvation)

With fear and trembling, work out your salvation--Phil 2:12

Seek the Truth; Find the Way; Live the Life.
Please God, and Live Forever.


Sarcastic Acronym Hover-Link Footnotes: For the convenience of those readers using devices that lack a mouse, these footnotes are provided for all webpages, in case any webpage contains any hover-links. (If you don't have a mouse, you can't "hover" it over a link without clicking just to see the simple acronym interpretation. Click any footnote link to see the acronym and a detailed explanation; "Hover" the mouse over it just to see the simple interpretation.)

SLIMC1 Secularist Liberal Intellectual Media Complex
GESGOEAEOT2 Gradually, Ever So Gradually, Over Eons And Eons Of Time
PEWAG3 Punctuated Equilibrium's Wild-Assed Guess
TTRSTF4 Them There Real Scientifical-Type Fellers
TTRSPTF5 Them There Real Smart Perfesser-Type Fellers
TTRSJTF6 Them There Real Smart Journalistical-Type Fellers
SNRTACBT7 Surely No Right Thinking Adult Could Believe Today
STNSEACPB8 Surely Today No Serious Educated Adult Could Possibly Believe
WDN9 We Don't Know
BMDFP10 Baboons, Mongrel Dogs, Filthy Pigs and ...
HBAACOTE11 Human Beings Are A Cancer On The Earth
ACLU12 Anti-Christian Litigation Union
FLORMPORIF13 Flagrant Liar, Or, Mindless Parrot, Or, Innocent Fool
MEJTML14 Marxist Ends-Justify-The-Means Liar
IEJTML15 Islamic Ends-Ends-Justify-The-Means Liar
MPAV16 Marxist Principles And Values
WBESSWG17 Wise, Benign, Elite, Super-Scientific World Governance
TRMITM18 The Reason Man's In This Mess
IYI19 Intellectual Yet Idiotic
TTRSCBTF20 Them There Real Smart Catholic Bishop Type Fellers
IACMPVND21 Illegal-Alien-Criminal Marxocrat-Party-Voting Nation-Destroyers
PEJTML22 Palestinian Ends-Justify-The-Means Liar
PSYOP23 "Psychological Operation" Mind Trick
CDC24 Covid Developmentally Challenged
LGBTQ+25 Every Letter Represents A Serious Psychotic sexual Identity Disorder
HEJTML26 Hedonist Ends-Justify-The-Means Liar
SEJTML27 Scientistic Ends-Justify-The-Means Liar

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Date:  Wed May 22 11:52:03 2024
From:  Murphy

Outside the Church there is no salvation.

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Date:  Wed May 22 14:33:46 2024
From:  Linda

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

I know you sincerely believe this statement to be true just as Protestants believe their own church is the way of salvation and so Baptists and Mormons.

  But who has made this declaration: man or Jesus Christ?  And if it is true, which I do not accept, then every Ancient Faith Christian from the Mideast to the Ukraine and Russia are either already in hell or bound for hell just as are all Protestants, Baptists, and Anglicans whether their hearts are soft or hard.

Psalm 91:14-16 encapsulates the vitally important salvation doctrine:

“Because he holds fast to me in love, I will deliver him; I will protect him, because he knows my name.

15  When he calls to me, I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will rescue him and honor him.

16  With long life I will satisfy him

and show him my salvation.”

Here is God Himself laying out the ideal of the softened heart (example: thief on the cross), ‘he holds fast to Me in love, knows My name, and calls Me in times of trouble.”   So says God, “I will deliver, protect, answer, be with him in trouble, rescue and honor him with eternal life and show him My salvation.”

Now God does not lie, thus, the Christian doctrine of salvation is the deliverance, by the grace of God, from eternal punishment for sin that is granted to those who accept by faith God’s conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus. Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12) and is dependent on God alone for provision and assurance, and on this we can rely because God does not lie.

Now only Jesus Christ knows our hearts, whether they are soft or hard.   Man cannot know the condition of the heart.   Only Christ can and I for one thank our Lord that only He is in charge of who is saved and who is not because if man has that power then he will consign nearly everyone to hell.   From Roman Catholics to Protestants, Baptists, and even nonChristian Mormons would consign almost everyone to hell.

Date:  Wed May 22 2024
From:  Vic Biorseth


"But who has made this declaration: man or Jesus Christ?"

Jesus Christ.

See the EENS page. It is proclaimed every time we recite the Creed. Salvation begins and ends with the Church.

There is one and only one God, Who founded one and only one Church.

Yeah, lots of people are going to hell. I can't help it. That's the way it is.

Here's what I just said about it in today's Exclusive Inclusiveness:

This is a time of dividing, and ending all this inclusion, if ever there was one. We are including ourselves to death.

EENS tells us that no one is saved outside of the Church.

But not being in the Church does not preclude Jews, Protestants and Orthodox from being in America. Maybe they won't be saved, but they can still be our neighbors, since they share our morality, whatever they may lack in their theology. We can have nothing to do with them theologically speaking, but we can be fellow Americans shoulder-to-shoulder with them against our common enemies.

That was, after all, how the Good Samaritan was viewed by our Lord, Who, in His incarnate form was a Jew. The parable identified "who is our neighbor", and it was not the robber, or the priest, or the Levite. It was the Samaritan. Never forget that it identified who our neighbor is not.



Date:  Wed May 22 17:26:50 2024
From:  Linda

"Now, when I say that, it is not to say that these are not fully Christian, believing, decent people, who are devout worshipers of the one and only God upon Whom eternal life depends. They are on a different faith trail than we Catholics are on, but that faith trail may lead to the same eternal life we all pray for; our Lord knows for sure, and we know that He is a Lord of Mercy. To say that Protestants have been misguided is not to say that they have been damned"

I'm glad to hear you say this because it does not mean that "Outside the Church there is no salvation".  Now when I see the word 'church' capitalized it nearly always means Roman Catholic Church.

On a side note, the Protestant service you described is an Evangelical or perhaps S. Baptist or Fundamentalist church.   It also describes the dispensational rapture faith which holds that you are only saved if you affirm the rapture doctrine.    A Presbyterian or Reformed Presbyterian service on the other hand is very different.

As for me, my grandparents were RCC as was my mother.  My father was Methodist.   He was a military man so my family moved a lot, from one state to another.  My husband was as well a military man so my life was nomadic.  I've lived in 23 states, overseas in Turkey for two years, and on the island of Okinawa for 3 years.  Attending church was a matter of what was available.    So my view of salvation does not reside in just one denomination even though my view of the rapture doctrine is not high.

Now where I currently live the only RCC is a place I would not step foot into for many legitimate reasons.   So I attend a Reformed Presbyterian church..  

So for me, with my nomadic life, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). and John 3:16 ascribes salvation to everyone who believes in Christ" is very important to me as is the knowledge that our Lord can use any of these denominations to bring people to salvation..  

Date:  Wed May 22 2024
From:  Vic Biorseth


The quote is from the Are You Saved? page. The key word in that quote is "may". It depends heavily on the mercy of God, and perhaps too heavily. It's a gamble.

Elsewhere herein I have argued with others over the "invincible ignorance" question. Saint Pope John Paul II, harried by bishops insisting that many lapsed laity may be still be saved because of their "invincible ignorance". John Paul, perhaps in exasperation, said, paraphrasing, "the invincibly ignorant may be saved, but those responsible for their invincible ignorance will go to hell."

Sola Scriptura is a condemned heresy. Sola Fide is a condemned heresy. The Universal Priesthood is a condemned heresy. Predestination is a condemned heresy. These are all roots and rhisomes of Protestantism and everything spawned off of Protestantism, which itself is a condemned heresy.

All of them are "New Gospels", condemned in Gal 1:8-9. There is no real difference between these new gospels and the book of Mormon, or the Watchtower. Any new gospel is condemned.

As you have pointed out, the Good Thief is in heaven, so its all up for the mercy of Jesus Christ, and no one else.

But, to actually go against EENS is one hell of a gamble.



Date:  Fri May 24 17:02:40 2024
From:  Murphy

"So my view of salvation does not reside in just one denomination ..."

Sadly, this betrays an attitude that your faith is in your own self and your own personal interpretation... Rather than in Christ and the only Church that he founded, outside of which there is no salvation.

In the very same way that all those who remained outside the ark, perished in the deluge.

Date:  Sun May 26 15:02:30 2024
From:  Linda

Unam Sanctum: A Politically Expedient, Unrighteous Document

"We affirm as Orthodox Christians that we are saved by the grace of God. God's grace is a free gift of God, it is something that can not be earned, it is never deserved, but rather it is something that results from the outpouring of God's great mercy. This is a good thing. We should never hope for a salvation that is dependent upon us. For such a salvation is uncertain at best. Rather a salvation that is rooted in the mercy of God is a salvation that becomes possible to all. Recall the passage from the gospels; what is not possible for man is possible for God. Second, we are saved by grace through faith. Faith is our response to grace; it is our side of the equation. God grants us salvation through His grace and once this is recognized, our faith is our acceptance of this gift. It is our way of saying, "yes" to the gift of God. Faith, "receives what God gives, not as something we deserve, but as a gift of His grace" (page 53). Orthodox Catechism Project.

Salvation in the ancient Orthodox faith is very similar to Protestant Christianity: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2: 8-9). The statement has three parts— salvation, grace, and faith—and they are equally important. The three together constitute a basic tenet of Christianity. (GotQuestions)

For both Orthodox ancient faith Christians and Protestants, to say that outside the church there is no salvation is self-evident. If all who  are saved or will be saved make up the true church—the Body of Christ, or Christ's Church—then of course those who are outside the church are not saved.  Once individuals are saved, they are also included in the church.

It's only with the Roman Catholic Church that we hear the claim made that salvation is only available through the Roman Catholic Church: extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (“outside the Roman Church, no salvation), thus, to be an ancient faith or Protestant Christian means damnation.

How did this outrageous claim that salvation is only through the Roman Catholic Church and no other come to be?

Power Corrupts; Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely

After the Catholic Church was legitimized in the 4th century by Constantine the Great (r. 306-337) it developed into a very corrupt, vastly wealthy, powerful political and social machine. The Lord our God was no longer accessible unless one was a member of the Roman Church. To be such a member, one needed to submit to the Church's teachings, onerous works, and penitentials--documents that allowed clergy to pry into the private lives of parishioners in order to enforce the proper practice of Roman Catholicism.  Then there was the idea that God created a hierarchy of being which in practice led to a system of classes much like India's caste system. Thus, if you had been born a peasant then a peasant you and your future family members for must be for ever.

Paul's admonitions in the Book of Romans and elsewhere on the sinful nature of humanity, the necessity of salvation, coupled with the human fear of death, made the Roman Church – God's one and only representative church on earth – an absolute necessity. Without the Church sinful people had no hope of understanding the will of God, the meaning of scriptures, or being saved and this is why the populace submitted themselves to Roman Catholic dictates.

The local parish priest was empowered by the Church hierarchy going up through canons, legates, bishops, cardinals, thence to the pope – the self-proclaimed successor to the apostle Peter (a claim not made by either ancient faiths or Protestants). The pope was supposedly the only man on earth who could claim to speak for God and held the power of salvation or damnation in his hands. The pope's supreme spiritual power however, did not sit well with the European aristocracy and ruling class who noticed that the pope's self-interest and the will of God were very often the same.

While continuing to proclaim and enforce its own absolute necessity to the population at large, the papacy recognized it needed some powerful evidence to convince powerful monarchs like King Philip of France to submit to Church demands. What was needed was temporal authority to validate its claim to spiritual authority over all souls while also making it clear that it was only through total submission to the Church that one might be granted salvation from hell. Two documents from the Middle Ages served this purpose, one was The Donation of Constantine and the other, the Unam Sanctam (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, Latin, for Outside the Church there is no Salvation). Together, these documents were considered the ultimate claim of the absolute spiritual and temporal authority of the Catholic Church.

The Donation of Constantine

The Donation of Constantine was a document claiming that Constantine the Great, who had legitimized Christianity, had donated his authority to the Church in gratitude for being cured of leprosy through sincere conversion and baptism by Pope Sylvester I (served 314-335):

" The document made clear that Constantine's power as emperor afterwards derived from the Church, and it was used by popes to coerce European rulers into complying with the Church's agenda. The document was a forgery, most likely made under the direction of Pope Stephen II, but no one would know this until the 15th century. Even though monarchs throughout the Middle Ages contested the document, they had no resources to even attempt to prove it was fake. The scholar and priest Lorenzo Valla (l. c. 1407-1457) proved it was a forgery through a careful evaluation of the text c. 1439-1440 in which he demonstrated that the language used was not consistent with that of 4th-century Rome but could be dated with certainty to the 8th century, the time of Stephen II and Pepin the Short. (Unam Sanctum: Spiritual Authority and the Medieval Church, Joshua J. Mark, world, June 2019)

The Donation, a forgery, was used to make clear to monarchs that they owed their power to the papacy, therefore must submit to the dictates of the pope.. But King Philip IV of France (r. 1285-1314) defied the authority of the pope when he decided to tax the clergy. Pope Boniface VIII reacted with a politically expedient papal bull forbidding the clergy paying the king anything without papal approval. Philip IV responded with an embargo which effectively cut the papacy off from significant sources of revenue.

The feud between the pope and the king continued until, in 1302, Boniface VIII issued the Unam Sanctam:

"Promulgated on 18 November 1302, the bull began by asserting the premise that the “holy, catholic and apostolic church” was the mystical body (corpus mysticum) of Christ and that, as such, had only one head, Christ’s vicar, the Roman pontiff.  The bull then went on to state that the Roman pontiff, as head of Christ’s mystical body, wielded two swords (i.e., powers): the spiritual one, which he wielded directly; and the temporal one, which he wielded indirectly through the earthly power."

" Citing the hierocratic writings of Pseudo-Dionysius, the bull then made the case that the spiritual power was above the temporal “in dignity and nobility” and that by virtue of this the “spiritual power has to institute the earthly power and to judge it if it has not been good.”  Echoing Aquinas, the bull concluded with an emphatic statement of papal supremacy: “therefore we declare, state, define and pronounce that it is altogether necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff.” Notably absent were any complicated proofs, temporizing language or principled qualifications."

"Although it drew on established theological arguments regarding hierarchy (Pseudo-Dionysius), the theory of the Two Swords (Bernard of Clairvaux), and the superiority of papal jurisdiction (Hugh of St. Victor, Thomas Aquinas), and although it was leavened with juristic concepts regarding the mystical body of Christ, the document was less an argument for the hierocratic thesis than a bold assertion, grounded in precedent and tradition, of the doctrine of unqualified papal supremacy over all temporal rulers." (Medieval Geopolitics: The Conflict Between Pope Boniface VIII and King Philip IV of France, Andrew Latham,

The Unam Sactum, the doctrine of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, was a product of political expediency, the mother of necessity to a corrupt, overbearing, power hungry pope and Roman Church.   That absolute power and control be maintained was the purpose of Unam Sanctum, an unrighteous document produced for unrighteous reasons but sealed and perfumed with the aroma of false holiness.

Joshua Mark comments:

"The Unam Sanctam was issued 18 November 1302 and response to it was almost universal rejection among the European nobility. Philip IV had the renowned and controversial theologian, philosopher, and Dominican friar John of Paris (l. 1255-1306) write a refutation arguing that the Church did indeed have spiritual authority but not over temporal matters and certainly not over kings who ruled by divine right and so had clearly already been installed in power by God and required no further submission to papal whims." (Unam Sanctum: Spiritual Authority & the Medieval Church, World History Encyclopedia, June 2019)

"Philip IV then accused Boniface of various crimes which he claimed he could prove and demanded he step down as pope. Boniface responded by drafting the excommunication of Philip IV, but before he could issue it, Philip IV sent 1,000 knights to attack Boniface in his palace and drag him back to Lyon for trial in September 1303." (ibid)

Having captured Boniface, he was beaten, and deprived of food and water for three days.  Though he was rescued by local citizens loyal to him the treatment he had received affected his health and he died a month later of fever in October 1303.  Clement V (served 1305-1314), a Frenchman, succeeded Boniface VII.   Pope Clement promptly sided with Philip IV and because it was politically expedient, he moved his court to Avignon to please the king.

Pope Clement further pleased the King by dropping his excommunication and issuing a declaration clearing Philip of any guilt in the attack on Boniface ending in his death. Thereafter, the Unam Sanctam was ignored by the European nobility who also sided with Philip IV and John of Paris in claiming that the Pope had no power over temporal affairs, freeing all Kings to rule as they saw fit without fear of  reprisals for failing to submit to papal demands.

Though the nobility's arguments were all sound they ultimately proved futile because logical and rational claims had no power against the seemingly,

"self-evident truth that the Church alone had the power to unlock the gates of heaven for a soul, consign it to the suffering of purgatory, or condemn it to hell. A king might accept excommunication for some transgression but would ultimately have to come to some form of terms with the pope to have it lifted in order to continue to be regarded as a legitimate Christian monarch." (Marks)

The politically expedient Unam Sanctam perfectly reflected the Church's exalted view of itself as the only legitimate agent of salvation, a view it impressed on the population of Europe along with the reality of the fires of hell awaiting transgressors after death:

"The Church's insistence on its unique position had already contributed to the so-called Great Schism of 1054 between the Roman Catholic Church in the west and the Eastern Orthodox Church as the medieval Church of Rome claimed it alone had received authority from Saint Peter and the eastern Church should surrender its autonomy. In 1054, the Eastern Orthodox Church refused to comply in the same way that Philip IV of France refused in 1302 and, eventually, as the men who led the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century would do also"

The temporal and spiritual authority of the corrupt Church was finally compromised and it found itself relegated to one church among others with the rise of the Protestant faith.   Though the Roman Church has tried to blame the Protestant Reformation for its fall, even going so far as condemning every element of the Protestant faith as heresy, its fall and the subsequent break-up of its empire was due to its love of power and control, its corruption, and other internal failings:

" Many of the policies and practices of the Church clearly contradicted the idealized vision it had of itself and its role in saving the souls of those it claimed to serve and this would eventually contribute to its fracture during the Protestant Reformation" (Marks)

Date:  Mon May 27 2024
From:  Vic Biorseth

The Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

That's the fifth century Athanasian Creed, fourth council of Toledo in 633 A.D.

Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, The Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father. By whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. (here all present kneel) And became incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary: AND WAS MADE MAN. (here all arise) He was also crucified for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried. And on the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, and who spoke through the prophets. And one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I await the resurrection of the dead and the life + of the world to come. Amen.

That's the Nicene Creed, second century, first council of Constantinople in 381 A.D. Note the four marks of the Church in the Nicene Creed: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

That describes the Church of Rome, and there is no other. 

That which the gates of hell will not prevail against.



Date:  Tue May 28 04:10:40 2024
From:  Linda


My respect for ancient patristic fathers is very high.   So high that my personal bible is an Ancient Faith study bible.

Now when it comes to Unam Sanctum, this was an outwardly 'good' document proffered for all the wrong reasons, making it like Cain's outwardly 'good' offering.   It was not that there was something intrinsically wrong with his offering.  It was his heart that was all wrong.   And so it was with Pope Boniface III.  And of course, our Lord is not fooled.  Only He can see our hearts.

Just as our Lord knew the hearts of both thieves on the cross. so He knew the heart of Boniface.  It is not then strange that he died as he did.

When I wrote the conclusion to the article Christendom and Protestant America it was within the context of historically verified facts and knowledge regarding the corruption and failures of both the Medieval Roman Church and Protestantism.   Calvinism, for instance, produced much suffering and does to this day.  

Because of certain bad and faulty foundations within both Roman Catholic and Protestantism, much suffering and animosity has been the result.    For example, just within the answer section of this thread I have been in essence assigned to hell, not because I do not love the Lord and am not saved, which I do and am, but because Unam Sanctum---a bad foundation--assigns me to hell.   But then I have heard a Baptist pastor and one of his deacons loudly declare the damnation of all Catholics.   And I have heard more of the same ugliness from other Protestants.

And so I ask myself:  When will there ever be forgiveness?  When will there ever be peace within the entire Body of Christ?

I fear there will not be forgiveness until both parties, RCC and Protestant willingly and with right hearts examine the bad foundations existing within both faith traditions and reform them.  As these bad foundations exist right now, they symbolically represent power to beat down, destroy, and damn.

Date:  Tue May 28 2024
From:  Vic Biorseth


The Protestant Fracturing of Christianity was the greatest disaster in all of human history. We are looking at and experiencing its terrible results even today. It invented and hammered-in multiple wedges to break the original faith apart, based on nothing more than the human failures and sins of Popes and other clergy on the one hand, and the greed and audacity of the "Reformers" on the other. 

But the Church, apart from its clergy, cannot be "reformed".

Royal descendants of Lutheran, Calvinist, Zwingli-an, Anglican, etc. "churches" down through the centuries all claimed crowns established by God, and all imposed their various new religions on their own citizenry, by law. That cruelty is what impelled the Pilgrims to come to America.

Man proposes, God disposes.

Today the most serious attack on the Church itself comes from inside, thanks to Cultural Marxism's successful incorporation of sodomites and communists into all ranks of the Catholic clergy.

It's not bad enough that men are subject to falling into sin, but now men who aim to detroy the faith are put in charge of it. Sort of like the current American Presidency.

You can always hope for the mercy of God, Linda, but your hope would be more certainly reinforced from inside the Church.

Warmest Regards,


Date:  Tue May 28 13:53:08 2024
From:  Linda


“For who knows a person’s thoughts except his spirit within him?  In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”  Ancient Faith Study Bible

“ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my way. This is the Lord’s declaration. For as heaven is higher than earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.  Isaiah 55: 8-9

“”Since then we are to discourse of the things of God, let us assume that God has full knowledge of himself, and bow with humble reverence to his words.  For he whom we can only know through his own utterances is the fitting witness concerning himself.”  Hillary of Poitiers, How to Think About God, Ancient Faith Study Bible“

After the Catholic Church was legitimized in the 4th century by Constantine the Great (r. 306-337) it developed into a very corrupt, vastly wealthy, politically powerful top-down machine. The Lord our God was no longer accessible unless one was a member of the Roman Church. The pope was supposedly the only man on earth who knew the Will of God, therefore could speak authoritatively for God and claimed for himself the power God unto salvation or damnation. Obviously, the Pope was not a man to bow with humble reverence to Gods words but a man of pride who claimed for himself what was not his but the Lord our Gods.

“For the time has come for judgment to begin with God’s household, and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?” 1 Peter 4: 17. Ancient Faith Bible

“When the time comes for God’s judgment it will start (at the top) and work its way downwards…God sends great suffering and fear on believers so that they may learn that he is the judge to whom they must answer….” Didymus the Blind, commentary on 1 Peter v4:17, Ancient Faith Bible

Within the context of the fall of the Medieval Roman Catholic Church the most important Person has been missing: the Lord our God.   Protestants have been blamed for the great catastrophe that was really the fault of a corrupt Roman Catholic Church.   But what about God?  Are we to believe He had no part in the “catastrophe” that overcame a Church whose Pope imagined he knew the mind and will of God and took for himself the powers of God to assign people to heaven or hell?    

Rather than falling on their faces and repenting of their transgressions against the Lord our God, the Medieval Roman Catholic Church chose to blame Protestants when what was at work was God’s judgment. He took away the Holy Roman Empire; He took from that Church its glory and grandeur and reduced it to one among many others so “they may learn that he is the judge to whom they must answer.”  

And still today, it hasn’t occurred to the RCC that God has judged them. Perhaps because they’ve been too busy scapegoating Protestants. Now Protestants are not blameless.   They have their own sins they must repent of.  But they are not responsible for the break-up of Christendom but are undergoing their own judgment. 

See: Will the End of Protestantism be the End of America?

Also:   See also: Can Mainline Protestantism Be Rebuilt?

Now these two pieces were published over on the Aquila Report, a prominent Reformed Protestant online forum.   Obviously, the editors believed these two pieces were worthy of being published.

Date:  Tue Mat 28 2024
From:  Vic Biorseth


I am nowhere near the scholar that you are, but I try. My favorite Bible is the Douay-Rheims with Challoner Notes. Recognizing that there were sinners, errors and perhaps even evil intentions on both sides of the Protestant-Catholic split that brought about the wars of the Reformation, which could really be called a world war, I can't help but wonder what history and the world would look like today if Luther had never revolted.

And if he had not broken his Priestly vows of poverty, chastity and obedience by taking up residence in a large estate looted from the Catholic Church, marrying a consecrated nun and starting his own church. As did Father Calvin, and as did Father Zwingli.

In the question of who fell the hardest and the farthest, between the Catholic and Protestant antagonists of the Reformation, I would have to say it was the Protestants. 

I'm sure Satan is still smiling over every bit of it.

The Church still stands; it is what it is.



Date:  Wed May 29 2024
From:  Vic Biorseth


"After the Catholic Church was legitimized in the 4th century by Constantine the Great (r. 306-337) it developed into a very corrupt, vastly wealthy, powerful political and social machine. The Lord our God was no longer accessible unless one was a member of the Roman Church. To be such a member, one needed to submit to the Church's teachings, onerous works, and penitentials--documents that allowed clergy to pry into the private lives of parishioners in order to enforce the proper practice of Roman Catholicism.  Then there was the idea that God created a hierarchy of being which in practice led to a system of classes much like India's caste system. Thus, if you had been born a peasant then a peasant you and your future family members for must be for ever."

Ludwig von Mises described it differently in his treatment of Bureaucracy, which we quoted heavily in the Catholic Communism page. According to Mises, a peasant could become a Pope:

"Plato’s ideal of elite rule has been converted into fact by the Catholic Church. The Roman Church, under the Tridentine organization as it emerged from the Counter Reformation, is a perfect bureaucracy. It has successfully solved the most delicate problem of every non-Democratic government, the selection of the top executives. To every boy access to the highest dignities of the Church is virtually open. The local priest is anxious to smooth the way to education of the most intelligent youths of his parish; they are trained in the Bishop’s seminary; once ordained, their further career depends entirely upon their character, their zeal, and their intellect. There are among the prelates many scions of noble and wealthy families. But they do not owe their office to their ancestry. They have to compete, on almost equal terms, with the sons of poor peasants, workers and serfs. The princes of the Catholic Church, the abbots and teachers of the theological universities, are a body of eminent men. Even in the most advanced countries they are worthy rivals of the most brilliant scholars, philosophers, scientists, and statesmen.

It is to this marvelous instance that the authors of modern socialist utopias refer as an example. The case is manifest with two forerunners of present-day socialism: Count Henri de Saint Simon and August Comte. But it was essentially the same with most other socialist authors, although for obvious reasons they did not point to the Church as a model. No precedent of a perfect hierarchy could be found other than that presented by Catholicism.

However, the reference to the Church is fallacious. The realm of Christianity which the Pope and the other Bishops administer is not subject to any change. It is built upon a perennial and immutable doctrine. The creed is fixed forever. There is no progress and not evolution. There is only obedience to law and the dogma. The methods of selection adopted by the Church are very efficient in the government of a body clinging to an undisputed, unchangeable set of rules and regulation. They are perfect in the choice of the guardians of an eternal treasure of doctrine."

Except for excluding the religion and reliance on God, early Marxists aped the model of the Church for their "perfect" political organization of human society. Communism envisions a perfect, utopian, bureaucratic hiearchy that instructs the workers in all aspects of the living of their lives, for their own good, and for their own perfection, for if they didn't know what was good for them then they would have to be changed, or "perfected". And bureaucracy would do that, they thought. 

The problem was the selection of the ruler, which the Catholic Church had perfectly solved, but Communism could not solve perfectly. The Church had a creed to protect; Marxism had no creed other than the ruthless assumption and exercise of raw political power. Therefore, as soon as there were multiple claimants to rulership, the only alternative was civil war, and perhaps permanent civil war.

Bureaucracy only works for the Church, and only so long as it adheres rigidly to the creed.



Date:  Wed May 29 13:02:39 2024
From:  Linda


The all important key phrase  in Mises lead paragraph is "emerged from the Counter Reformation."

He is not talking about the corrupt condition of the Medieval Church prior to the Counter Reformation but afterward, as it emerged from a much needed reform.   All of my discussion centers on the 'before' condition rather than the "after."

Now if afterward a peasant could become a Pope then the Counter reformation most obviously did away with the generational class structures of the Medieval Church and that is to be applauded.

Furthermore, the smoothing  of "the way to education of the most intelligent youths of his parish" is similarly excellent..  

"Except for excluding the religion and reliance on God, early Marxists aped the model of the Church for their "perfect" political organization of human society. Communism envisions a perfect, utopian, bureaucratic hiearchy that instructs the workers in all aspects of the living of their lives, for their own good, and for their own perfection, for if they didn't know what was good for them then they would have to be changed, or "perfected". And bureaucracy would do that, they thought. "

Here I agree absolutely with Solzhenitsyn who observed that all of Marxism's grandiose claims to creation of a New Man (also taken from the Bible) and a utopian kingdom on earth (aping God's restored Paradise) were nothing but pretenses for their burning hatred of Jesus Christ.

BTW, our discussion re Marxism has led me to update a previously published piece about the utopian dream: Marxism, socialism, Transhumanism.   When finished I'll submit it to you.   I think you'll be interested in its Biblical foundations.

Date:  Wed May 29 2024
From:  Vic Biorseth


Agreed. Re the Mises quote, it looks like the Pope and his closest advisors took a good long look at themselves as well as at the revolutionaries and took pains to clean up their own act as well. Until now, what I had learned, perhaps uncritically, was that Trent was the culmination of the investigation into fine points of the revolution, and thus the issuing of the Protestant anathemas, and that was it. The Pope building St. Peters and "selling" indulgences was all kind of glossed over as a necessary call to acts of piety for the souls in purgatory from those who could best afford it. A little fuzzy maybe, but not evil.  

And, until now, I always thought that the worst Pope in Catholic history was Alexander XI, described by others as "the Pope Catholics are the least proud of". But now, just look at Francis.

And, look at all the unconstitutional federal bureaucracies (Soviets) now quite unconstitutionally controlling every aspect of the living of our lives, right here in the constitutional republic of America.

We have an American President and a Catholic Pope who favor Islam, Communism and Hedonism over America and the Catholic Church.

NOTE: Something screwy is going on with my outlook account (emai) and I am going through long periods of hours with no email, and then suddenly a flood of them all at once, and these comments come to me in emails. Please forgive any excessive tardiness in responding. 



Date:  Thu May 30 03:50:11 2024
From:  Linda


And, until now, I always thought that the worst Pope in Catholic history was Alexander XI, described by others as "the Pope Catholics are the least proud of". But now, just look at Francis.

I'm nearly certain Francis is acting on behalf of the religious part of the NWO cabal.   If so, then he is the most powerful member of the interfaith initiative which includes Protestant 'wolves' and many outright pagan religious leaders.

When Abp Vigano calls Francis the antipope I'm in agreement.   Here is Abp Vigano accusing Francis of the same abuses as McCarrick:

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Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Jesus Christ; Matthew 7:13–15

Linda Kimball

Prayer Against Wicked Ideologues Rescue us, O Lord!

System of Lies: Ideological Paradise on Earth and Why the Bloody, Violent Dream Will Not Die

Christendom and Protestant America’s Apostasy into Paganism A Timeline

The presence and influence of powers, principalities, and demons in our age of apostasy into godlessness

Nihilism…All That Exists is Matter and Energy The Worldview that Caused the Collapse of Christendom and Protestant America

Revisiting Nihilism: The Will Turned Toward Evil and the Destruction of Western and American Civilization

The enemies of God, reality, truth, western civilization and our souls Linda Kimbal column

The Last Hour and the New World Order Prayer

Our Call to Battle: Rise of the Spirit of Antichrist Prayer Article: “And this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” (1 John 4:3)

God to Mankind: NOW Do You See the Stupidity, Depravity, and Evil in Your Hearts?

Raising the New Tower-- Occult Evolution: Antediluvian, Babylonian and Modern Expressions

Psychopathy and the Western and American Tyranny of Evil Leftist Progressive Myths

Supernatural Genesis 1-11 vs. Pagan Darwinism God and Liberty or Fallen Mankind and Tyranny

Luke 21: 29-31: Some Signs Of America's Abandonment And Spiritual Bondage

Eternal Paradise Or Hell? How And Why Both Choices Are Freely Made

Luciferian Humanists: Citing the Genesis Account is Evil "Any country grounded in Judaeo-Christian values can't be overthrown until those roots are cut ... "

Who is intolerant because ashamed: Creationists or Evolutionary Theists?

Death of the Christian God in Hearts of All Humans Why America and W. Europe are Committing Suicide


Pagan-Darwinian-Materialism Redoubt of Miserable Self-Deceived Non-Self Nihilists

Americas' Spiritually Dead, Deep State and Ruling Class Nihilists Walking Dead Parasitic Idolaters

Doctrines of Demons and the Modern Pagan and Pantheist Antithesis The West's Greatest Threat

Gnosis: The Main Expression of Paganized Christianity in the New Age Inner Knowing, Self-Salvation

Our Age of Malicious Perversion How Truth, Meaning, and Reality Have Been Perverted

The Serpent's Gnostic Luciferian Elite Oligarchy and Global Powers Demonic Darkness Over the West and America

The Creation Model Versus Modern Pagan Models
2 Corinthians 10:5

What Kind of God Do You Believe In?
2 Cor. 10:5 Destroying 'scientific' arguments for false Gods

Evil Spirits, Death of God, Satanic Inversion Pagan America's Reality of Madness, Demonic Bondage, and Non-Self

Judgment and Wrath The Biblical Explanation for Madness and Evil

The Worldview of Evil Spirits Revolution, Evolution, Materialism, Nihilism, New World Order, and More

Gnosis The Main Expression of Modern Paganized Christianity

America's Transformation Into A Mystical Pantheist God-State What the Death of God Has Wrought

Message to All Wearied Truthtellers: Let Isaiah Be Your Inspiration the Remnant

The Triune God, Supernatural Heaven, Souls, Hell, and Demons Do They Exist?

Teachings of Demons The Aeon of Horus, Reign of God-Men, and End of the Christian God

Revelation 2:7" ...the closing of a steel door – a solemn, cataclysmic slamming of a door."

Systemic Nihilism: End of the Human Race Eternal Damnation of Human Souls

Infernal Apocalyptic Atmosphere Over America Disintegration into nothing

Global and Ruling Class Criminal Elitists Their Ring of Power and Pact with the Spirit of Death and Hell

Blessed is the Man Who Does Not Listen to Falling Stars Who Follow After Damnable Heresies

Darwinism: An Abomination Aborting and Rotting the Church. The falling away and apostasy from the one true and personal Holy Triune Creator God has not ended

The Evil One and the Impenitent Who Receive His Mark“. And the LORD God formed man (and) breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Genesis 2:7

The Fall of Mankind, the Religion of Evolution, and the Antichrist. "Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall." Proverbs 16:18

Why Secular Liberals Actively Promote Evil. Mentally Retarded Liberals

Cultural Marxism. The Many Hidden Faces of Living Active Communism

The Devil, the Big Bang, Evolution, Extraterrestrials and the Genesis Problem

The Ascension To Power Of Misogyny. Hatred of Women

Gnostic Chiliastic Evolution: Satan's Alternative Plan of Salvation. The Great Reset

Why Proclaiming Jesus Christ the Word Became Flesh is Offensive. The Technocratic Utopian World Order

The Divine Androgyne, Pandemonium, and the Battle for Our Souls. Satan's Rising New World Order

America's Modern Pagan Oligarchy, Aztec Gods, and Human Sacrifice. Isaiah 57 Revisited

The Peace Symbol: Occult Sign Meaning Death Against Christians. Hatred of Jesus Christ and Christianity

Americas’ Spiritually Desolate, Parasitic, Ruling Class Nihilists. Satan and Powers and Principalities

Global Oligarchy, Forces of Darkness, and the Spirit of Antichrist. Forces Darkness Within Church and State

Darwinism: Idol of mind symbolizing hatred of Triune Creator God. And Logical End of America

Is the World a Computer Simulation in the Minds of Robotic Overlords? Magic Science, Transhumanists, Gnostic Physicists.

Your soul: Cost of admission to the Progressive Pagan City of Man. New Egypt, Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah

Iron Curtain Over American Minds Progressive Marxisms’ Ideological Utopia

Satan’s New World Order Blueprint and Key Strategy. Christian Capitulation To the Serpent's Consensus Process

Chaos, Breakdown, Demoralization, Destruction: America's New Normal. How it came about and where we are going.

Demonic Darkness: America's Invisible Wave of Evil. Staring into the abyss

Cain, Marxism, Leftism and America's ruling class of 'superior' humans. The dragon they have in common

Modernist Christians in a Man-Centered Universe. Scientific Neutrality and Biblical Deconstruction

The Connection Between Baphomet and Why Researchers Are Creating Interspecies Embryos. 2 Corinthians 10:5

Isaiah 57 revisited: America's progressive pagan elites. Staring into the Abyss

Evolutionary Theism Implies That Christ is Wrong About Creation"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" John 5:46-47

Utopianism. Progressive Utopian Cultural Marxism Poisoning Minds, Churches, Schools, Politics

Acts 17:18-19-modern pagan and pantheist antithesis of the Word of God Ecclesiates 1:9 "What has been is what will be.."

Trotsky's Permanent Revolution From Hell In America. The Soviet System in America

Why Transgenderism Is Being Forced Upon America and Our Children. The Divine Androgyne

The Evil Eye Of Envy: Why Being ‘White’ Is Offensive To Some People. No Vice Worse Than Envy

Absolute Nothingness and Non-Self: The Reigning Worldview of Global Power Elites and Western Ruling Classes

What is Evil? Man-made alternative realities

Cliff Kincaid

Trump is a Marked Man By Cliff Kincaid

Terrorist Attack in Baltimore By Cliff Kincaid

Moscow Terror Attack is Another KGB Operation to Fool the West

Obama’s New Nazi-Communist Alliance

On the "Days Of Rage" Planned For The 2024 Marxocrat Party Convention Some of you just couldn't believe that the formerly Democrat (Confederate) Party had already gone totally Communist before the 1968 Party Convention

Making Russia Great Again By Cliff Cinkaid

De-Nazification and De-Communization in Russia The The mutual non-aggression Hitler-Stalin Pact, which started World War II, has been carefully “forgotten”

Climate Emergency To Produce a New World Order By Cliff Kincaid

The Next Phase of Obama’s “Permanent Revolution” By Cliff Kincaid

Evil in the White House In This War, The Enemy Is In The Ranks, Standing Right Next To You

Satanism, Communism: What's The Difference? Look To The Roots Of Communism

Fox Is the Leading "Trans" Channel There are some rather peculiar goings-on at the Fox News Channel.

Trump and His Communist Enemies The Demonized Joe McCarthy Turned Out To Be Accurate In Everything He Claimed: Fox News Is Wrong About Him And About Much More

The Five Stooges on Capitol Hill They Think We Need Even More Doped No-Hopers In The American Intelligence Community

The Biden Doctrine of Demoralization and Defeat By Cliff Kincaid

A Republican Church Committee? Do Pro-American Republicans Even Know Who Frank Church Really Was?

A Top to Bottom Housecleaning of America When we clean our house, my wife has a slogan, “Top to bottom,” meaning you have to target the whole house. The same advice applies to nations.

China's Mass Murder Experiment Phase Two

Bury The Dead And Move On Fuggedaboutit!

9/11 Truth This is the real 9/11 Truth: Our “intelligence” agencies are infiltrated.

Moving Toward Gorbachev’s “World of Communism” It's called the Monster Plot.

The Errors of Russia, the Dupes of Putin, and Another Holocaust Can The Increasingly Faithless Free World Be Saved From Russia?

World War Quietly Conquering A Distracted and Blithely Unaware World. Could it actually be Satan's world war on despised humanity?

Stand With Ukraine Against Russia and China By Cliff Kincaid

Tucker Carlson Carlson Gets His Comeuppance. Tucker's View: It is not moral for us to intervene in support of any nation's (Ukraine's) democratic self-determination and against Soviet military expansion.

The Need for Secure Borders. Have we so easily forgotten what borders are for? Have we forgotten that evil exists in the world? Have we forgotten how to keep apart from this evil?

Can Ukraine Survive Putin and Biden? Can America? Can the Free World? Can Faith in God?

The Soviet Union: Back From The Dead The Return of the Evil Empire

Could an American Surrender be in the offing with Biden at the wheel? Is this not the perfect time for Communism to strike, with Commies now governing America, China and Russia? What would Biden do?

Abortion and Communism. If you ever wondered where all the popular abortion-contraception-sexuality-perversion nuttiness came from, look to Marx's Communist Manifesto.

The Secret Life of Martin Luther King, Jr. A life almost totally at odds with his reputation as a minister of the Gospel.

"We belong to the Church militant; and She is militant because on earth the powers of darkness are ever restless to encompass Her destruction. Not only in the far-off centuries of the early Church, but down through the ages and in this our day, the enemies of God and Christian civilization make bold to attack the Creator's supreme dominion and sacrosanct human rights." --Pope Pius XII

"It is not lawful to take the things of others to give to the poor. It is a sin worthy of punishment, not an act deserving a reward, to give away what belongs to others." --St. Francis of Assisi

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Truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.—Winston Churchill

Note the Military Assault Rifle common to the American Founding Era.

The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.—Ayn Rand

Atheist Genesis:

In the beginning there was nothing, and nothing happened to nothing.
And then nothing accidentally exploded and created everything.
And then some bits of everything accidentally encountered other bits of everything and formed some new kinds of everything.
And then some bits of everything accidentally arranged themselves into self-replicating bits of everything.
And then some self-replicating bits of everything accidentally arranged themselves into dinosaurs.

(See The Darwinism Pages)

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