Formerly the Thinking Catholic Strategic Center
July 04, 2017
This webpage was inspired by a comment from Annemarie on the Protestant Mass page. Specifically, her recommendation to compare the wording of Gen 3:15 in the New American (used in the Novus Ordo) with the King James Version and the Douay-Rheims. Here they are:
The New American translation looks pretty Protestant to me.
This brought back memories of sometimes heated arguments I had with professors and lecturers at the Athenaeum of Ohio during the LPMP program, much of which I wrote about, mostly among the various Cafeteria Catholic pages. The whole program used the New American.
One argument revolved round Luke 1:28, which was to become the beginning line of the Hail Mary. I didn't like the New American translation. Again, here they are for comparison:
I challenged the New American translation in class. With almost insufferable professorial condescension my argument was dismissed as juvenile and without merit, and not worthy of further discussion. The Church was just getting with the times, and today most people didn't even understand that old language.
But the fact remains that a whole Catholic theology is built up around the phrase "full of grace". That is a truly unique greeting and a truly unique title. It means full-to-the-brim, can't-hold-any-more, no-room-for-sin. It is unique. Should we then take the professorial interpretation to the extent of changing the words of the Hail Mary from "Hail Mary, full of grace" to be "Hail Mary, favored one"?
If Catholics no longer understand the meaning of the words "full of grace" then I contend that that is the fault of the Catholic Bishops whose sole responsibility it is to correctly teach the faith to the faithful.
Anyway, what Annemarie's comment has led me to is a change in Bibles. For a number of years now I have used the Revised Standard Version (RSV) as being the most true-to-original modern translation around. Just about all the Scripture quotes you see anywhere in this site are taken word-for-word from the RSV. But from now on I intend to use the Douay Rheims. It is the word-for-word English translation of the Vulgate, the only Bible ever approved by the Church, at the Council of Trent.
The Latin Vulgate came into being around 400 A.D., was in continuous use by the Church, and was finally "approved" at Trent. It contains all the Old Testament books thrown out by the Jews at the Jewish Council of Jamnia, and later thrown out by Martin Luther in his German Bible, which was a plagiarism of the pre-existing German translation known as the Codex Templensis.
The Protestant claim that Luther was first to translate the Bible into German is a lie. The Codex Templensis predates Luther's by hundreds of years, and whole chapters and books are absolutely word-for-word the same, as though copied. Although Luther left out the books he didn't want. The Codex Templensis was one of many non-Latin translations done for the Clergy, so that they could preach more directly to the people without pausing to correctly translate words or whole phrases.
To set the record straight, in those days, if anyone could not read Latin, they couldn't read, period, in any language. This is because Latin had already supplanted Greek as the language of formal education. All education was done in Latin; therefore, the first thing any student had to learn before he learned anything else, was Latin. Every subject was taught in Latin. Including other languages. If you wanted to learn German, you first had to learn Latin, and your Latin teacher would teach you, in Latin, how to speak, read and write in German.
It bears repeating: if you couldn't read Latin, then you couldn't read at all.
The Vulgate was written in Latin, the "vulgar language" meaning, the language of the masses. Everybody spoke Latin, although everyone couldn't necessarily read it. That's why St. Jerome wrote the Vulgate in Latin.
He translated the Septuagint, written in Greek, into Latin to make the Old Testament part of the Vulgate. And he translated all of the Gospels, Acts and the Epistles into Latin for the New Testament.
As much as I love the RSV, I'm going back to the Douay-Rheims, to be closer to the original and only approved version, the Latin Vulgate.
Protestants sing "Gimme that old time religion".
I want to sing "Gimme that old time Catholicism" and "Gimme that old time Revelation", un-translated, un-interpreted, and un-spun.
And especially, un-Protestantized.
Seek the Truth; find the Way; live the Life. Please God, and live forever.
Addendum October 31, 2017:
This Vortex Video is so appropriate to this and to any discussion on the Bible that I added the link to this page. There is one and only one Church, and there is one and only one Authority, and that is the one and only one Church. There is no other. If no two literary critics can come up with exactly the same interpretation and critique of any written essay, novel, article, book, etc., then, how could it ever be possible for a whole world of independent literary critics of Scripture to come up with the exact same interpretation of the whole Bible? Sola Scriptura is quite impossible.
Sarcastic Acronym Hover-Link Footnotes: For the convenience of those readers using devices that lack a mouse, these footnotes are provided for all webpages, in case any webpage contains any hover-links. (If you don't have a mouse, you can't "hover" it over a link without clicking just to see the simple acronym interpretation. Click a footnote link to see the gory details.)SLIMC1 Secularist Liberal Intellectual Media Complex
Culture=Religion+Politics; Who Are We? Vic Biorseth
The Brilliantly Conceived Organization of the USA; Vic Biorseth
Return to the BLOG page
Return to the HOME PAGE
Subscribe to our Free E-Zine News Letter
Respond to This Article Below The Last Comment
Date: Tue Jul 04 12:01:54 2017
You cannot believe how excited I am to be mentioned in your blog!! However, I think there's a wee bit typo in your Douay Rheims verse. It should read I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: SHE shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
In my local NO church that I used to attend there is Our Lady of Grace crushing the serpent's head. Beautiful image, but so confusing for those who have actually never read the Douay Rheims version.
Thank you again! :D
Date: Tue Jul 04 2017
From: Vic Biorseth
Right you are!
I used an on-line cross-reference site (Biblos.com) that shows verses as shown in various Bible versions, and I mistook DBY to stand for Douay-Rheims. DBY actually sands for Darby. Biblos.com doesn't even have a Douay-Rheims, nor does it even have an RSV. Maybe it has an aversion to Catholicism.
Your comment made me pull my old Douay-Rheims off the shelf and dust it off. You were right on the money. Then I went to DRBO.org and got the real thing on-line.
Thank you so much! I have corrected it on the webpage.
A footnote refering to 3 Gen 15 talks about whether Jesus or Mary crushes Satan's head:
Date: Tue Jul 04 15:08:26 2017
I agree that the New American Bible & the newly revised version of it are more "protestant" than Catholic...
Are you familiar with the ORIGINAL Douay-Rheims version (NT-1582 and OT-1609 & 1610) that Bishop Challoner later revised... The changes introduced by him [Bishop Challoner] were so considerable that, according to Cardinal Newman, they almost amounted to a new translation. So, also, Cardinal Wiseman wrote, 'To call it any longer the Douay or Rheimish Version is an abuse of terms. It has been altered and modified until scarcely any verse remains as it was originally published.' In nearly every case Challoner's changes took the form of approximating to the Authorized Version [King James]. . ."
Read more about it out here >
and also here >
I purchased the Original Rheims New Testament (from ChurchLatin.com)several years ago and it's amazing to read the *original* English translation of the Latin and study the notes and commentary that are now corruptly *modernized*...
Date: Tue July 04 2017
From: Vic Biorseth
No, this is all new to me.
Date: Wed Jul 05 2017
From: Vic Biorseth
I'm not so sure your statements about the Challoner Revision are completely accurate. Looking at an 1859 critical comparison shows that the changes, to my eye, did not change the meaning, but perhaps made it more understandable in the English of the day. Which is what the Vulgate itself was intended to do.
The places where Challoner's Revision disagreed with the original Douay seemed to not change the Catholic interpretation, but the language, from older Old English to newer Old English. It must be admitted that the King James, while erroneous in many places, as a work of English literature, is an absolute masterpiece of the English of that day.
I am no scholar and certainly no linguist, but the verses compared in the linked critical analysis seem to me to be aimed at making the original thoughts better understood. Not to comply with any Protestant theology.
So you can say that this verse or that agrees more with the Protestant Bible than the Catholic, but if the properly understood thought behind the words was still Catholic, that criticism only testifies to the fact that so many parts of the Protestant Bible of the day agreed with the Catholic.
Does anybody more knowledgeable have anything to say here?
Date: Wed Jul 05 20:31:52 2017
Actually, the statements about the Challoner revision by Cardinal John Henry Newman and Cardinal Wiseman are quoted from Dr. William G. von Peters, as found in the linked article.
Your point about linguistic style vs theological substance seems to be valid in the verses cited. I would like to ask EWTN's Fr. Mitch Pacwa for his opinion on the original vs. Bishop Challoner's version.
Another excellent on-line resource which displays parallel texts for the Vulgate, Douay-Rheims, and Knox translation can be found here >
The recent modernist/progressive translations seem to be moving toward an inclusive-language, non-denominational *church of nice* version...
God bless, Seppe
If you want to establish, launch and maintain an independent personally owned actual WebSite like this one, go to SBI! They will make a Web-Master out of you at the very least, and make you into an entrepreneur with your own business if that's your goal. You don't need any special skills or special knowledge, other than the topic of whatever your WebSite will be about.
Never be lukewarm.
Life itself demands passion.
He who is indifferent to God has already forfeited his soul.
He who is indifferent to politics has already forfeited his liberty.
In America, religion is not mere window dressing and citizenship is not a spectator sport.
Do not allow our common destiny as a whole people to just happen without your input.
Seek the Truth; find the Way; live the Life; please God, and live forever.
Catholic American Thinker
Free E-zine Subscription
You will receive immediate email newsletters with links to new articles as they are published here. Your email is perfectly secure here; we use it only to send you the
Catholic American Thinker
and absolutely nothing else.
The purpose of this grouping of articles is to attack and refute perverted Catholicism, and to point the way back to Catholic orthodoxy and adherence to magisterial authority and teaching.
Refuting Perverted Catholicism
Opposing "soft" Catholicism, I'm OK - You're OK Catholicism, Cafeteria-Catholicism of the pick-and-choose variety, and the pure evil that seeks to pervert Catholicism from within, while wearing the mask of piety.
On going back to the Original Bible, after all these Revisions. The Douay-Rheims is the English translation of the original Vulgate, the world's first one-book Bible, put together by St. Jerome around 400 A.D. From now on, this is my Bible of reference.
The Institutional Church, Institutional Nations and Institutional Man. The Institutional Church, like any instituted nation, is a solid, fixed, objective thing. You can point to it and say "there it is". Institutional Man is "Institutional" by Natural Law.
Refuting Perverted Catholicism: defending the Church as the Center of all Truth. Refuting Perverted Catholicism at the Layman Level. If proper Catholic catechesis dies, all is lost.
Is the Novus Ordo Mass already a mostly Protestant Mass? A Protestant Mass? Excuse me? Was that really somebody's plan from the beginning?
Has the USCCB morphed into the Catholicrat Party with it's own agenda? Our Democrat Party is now Maxocrat; our Republican Party is now Republicrat; has our USCCB gone Catholicrat?
On the Anti-Church metastasizing within the Roman Catholic hierarchy. The anti-Church within the Church: the anti-Papal agenda advancing even in the Vatican itself.
Babbling Christianity: The Loss of Unity in the Christian Message. Is some New Testament "Tower of Babble" moment behind babbling Christianity's ever increasing disunity?
Why is our whole culture going to pot? It's our morality, stupid. Every cultural thing - law, order, decency, indecency, salvation, damnation - hangs on a recognized cultural morality.
Can we find actual Evil inside the Catholic Church? Well, why not? The war between Satan's kingdom (the World) and the Kingdom of God, and Evil inside the Catholic Church.
The Modernist Heresy: Western Man's Descent from Philosophy into Modernism. Modernism is the heresy of heresies, because it carries within it all previous heresies, being as it is a direct, frontal assault upon faith and all doctrine and dogma.
Lucifer and the CCHD: The Catholic Campaign for Human Development.
Lucifer and the CCHD: how Lucifer’s disciples infected Catholic thinking, enjoyed Catholic funding and advanced evil in America.
The Catholic Communizer Dorothy Day is up for Sainthood? Excuse me?
The Catholic Communizer Dorothy Day’s life work was Marxist Community Organizing for future revolution.
The anti cafeteria Catholic forum is a thorn in the pew for Catholic wimps.
The anti cafeteria Catholic forum addresses weak-kneed, wimpy, inclusive, "Spirit of Vatican II" heterodox Catholicism. Refute these contentions if you can.
On Straying, Right or Left, from the Catechism.
We have before us, on one side, excesses of "Social Justice" and "Liberation Theology", and on the other, the "Lefebvre" movement and related groups. In the center: the Catechism.
Do our Catholic bishops promote and teach Roman Catholicism, or something less?
Cafeteria Catholicism, i.e., Pick-And-Choose Catholicism, is rampant in America, thanks to many American Catholic bishops.
(Cafeteria Catholicism 101)
My "Education" at the Athenaeum Of Ohio LPMP (Lay Pastoral Minstry Program).
The Athenaeum Of Ohio LPMP program was the required pre-requisite for entry into the Deaconate program in Archbishop Daniel E. Pylarczyk's Cincinnati Archdiocese.
(Cafeteria Catholic 1)
The hidden dissident agenda in the Athenaeum of Ohio LPMP teaching.
The overriding dissident agenda of Liberal Catholicism appeared sometimes mostly in teaching material, sometimes in teachers themselves, sometimes in both.
(Cafeteria Catholic 2)
A better name for the LPMP's Formation for Discipleship class: Catholic Dissent.
The Athenaeum of Ohio LPMP course called Formation for Discipleship was one big long exercise in Catholic dissent, pure and simple.
(Cafeteria Catholic 3)
Moral Theology, Cincinnati Archdiocese style: This ain't your daddy's religion. Christian Ethics is the title of the course in the Athenaeum of Ohio LPMP course on Catholic Moral Theology.
(Cafeteria Catholic 4)
Athenaeum of Ohio LPMP Christology Course: NOT about the Christ Who Rose Again.
This theoretically Catholic Christology course teaches about a Christ Who didn't know who he was, didn't necessarily rise again after death, but Who "teaches us valuable lessons" nonetheless.
(Cafeteria Catholic 5)
Athenaeum courses consistently taught that the early Church condoned slavery.
This teaching is clearly false. Yet the Athenaeum of Ohio LPMP program, in multiple courses, officially taught that the Church "changed" its teaching on slavery.
The "Enlightened" birthing of Historical-Critical Scripture analysis.
Historical Criticism of the most paranormal literature ever produced calls into question the "enlightenment" of the enlightened.
Catholic Communism: Similarities between Church Hierarchy and Pure Bureaucracy.
Mises said that Communism equals Bureaucracy; the Church is a bureaucracy, therefore we have Catholic Communism. True?
Materialistic Culture Versus The Catholic Thinker.
The Catholic Thinker is called to openly oppose Materialistic Culture.
The Thinking Catholic Challenge: Walking that very inconvenient walk.
The Catholic American Thinker seeks a return to Critical Thinking, recognition of Objective Reality, and living a solid, morally grounded life.
Compromise with Evil begins the ultimate death spiral.
Compromise on any Vital Principle leads to death, for individual souls and for cultures.
On the Origin and Destiny of the American Catholic Identity Crisis. The ongoing 50+ year American Catholic identity crisis was born of a split between the Magisterium who protected it, and the academics who taught it.
Cafeteria Sinners: Selecting Mortal Sins from the Catholic Smorgasbord. Catholicism's Cafeteria Sinners pick and choose the mortal sins they will commit, and still participate in Eucharist.
Defining "Difficulty", "Doubt" and "Dissent" in Catholicism. Reactions to Doctrine(s) presenting difficulty, doubt and dissent among the faithful need examination.
"We belong to the Church militant; and She is militant because on earth the powers of darkness are ever restless to encompass Her destruction. Not only in the far-off centuries of the early Church, but down through the ages and in this our day, the enemies of God and Christian civilization make bold to attack the Creator’s supreme dominion and sacrosanct human rights.”--Pope Pius XII
"It is not lawful to take the things of others to give to the poor. It is a sin worthy of punishment, not an act deserving a reward, to give away what belongs to others."--St. Francis of Assisi
Truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.—Winston Churchill
The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.—Ayn Rand
If you can't find the page you're looking for, try the