Formerly the Thinking Catholic Strategic Center
July 01, 2017
In the recently published Identifying the Enemy webpage, I referred to the existing Vatican project to develop a Liturgy for a Catholic Mass at which Protestants could fully participate. No, that's not a typo or a mistake. We've mentioned it before, but I don't know what the current status of the project is.
If you're like me, the very idea seems preposterous. But then so does most everything else going on these days. Well, after publishing Identifying the Enemy, I got an email from a fellow Church Militant RESISTANCE! group member revealing the fact that the original Novus Ordo Mass of Paul VI was actually developed with the theological and liturgical collaboration of Protestants.
This is new to me, but apparently it is true. See the Critical Study of the New Mass by Cardinal's Alfredo Ottaviani and Antonio Bacci, which was sent by them to Pope Paul VI.
Let me quote from the email:
I wrote about the Bugnini scandal in the Liturgy page, but this is new.
I don't know what to say about all this. It is all new to me. But I am very, very interested in what you have to say about it. I hope some priests or deacons out there will address it, one way or the other. Or real theologians and liturgists, who are not also Modernists.
Has the whole Church been duped and fooled in its own Divine Liturgy?
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Date: Sat Jul 01 20:42:08 2017
From: Mike Gent
Location: Saratoga Springs/N.Y./USA
The answer to your last question is: Church hierarchy=dupers, Church faithful=dupees. But some of us have figured out the heretical scams.
Date: Sun Jul 02 2017
From: Vic Biorseth
Looking back through the fog of memory, I think I knew Protestants were involved, but I never questioned why. It was. in my mind, like how non-Catholic scientists have always been involved in Vatican scientific research. As long as the quest was for some material truth, we shouldn't worry so much about what the inquisitor believes about ultimate truth.
But Liturgy is part of theological science, not material science. What could any Protestant offer that would be good for Catholic Liturgy?
Now I'm kicking myself for never asking that very simple question.
Date: Sun July 02 2017
From: Vic Biorseth
Your comment is not published here; clean it up a little and try again. I'm not going to even try to edit out your vulgarities and keep your original meaning intact.
Essentially, I never said, in Identifying the Enemy, that Protestants are not our Political allies. Catholics need to join with Protestants and Jews to support Trump and the return of America to Constitutional Law.
But anyone who does not recognize the theological enemy that Protestantism is to Catholicism is simply lacking in education in Church, World and American history. The fact that we should ally with someone in American and world politics does not mean that we should also welcome them to Catholic Eucharist.
They are our allies in the outside world. But this Church is the Catholic world.
Date: Sun Jul 02 11:23:51 2017
You forgot to add that crazy hand gesturing! Totally protestant! Also, compare Genesis 3:15 in the "Catholic Bible" and the King James and then read it in Douay Rheims.
I would love to know what Jimmy Akin (Catholic Answers) would say to this. He claims that Vatican II didn't do anything to the Mass and it hasn't been changed. Patrick Madrid, on the other hand, claims that the Catholic Church is a living, breathing and ever-changing, evolving entity...he attends TLM.
When I travel, I end up sometimes having to go to a NO Mass if a TLM isn't available, it's hard. Just recently, my daughter took the body of Jesus in her hand because she thought the priest was a female deacon. I just about died when she told me. She's 11 and had a hard time shaking hands with everyone and freaked that there was not only a guitar on "stage" (I can't even call it an altar with the "band" up there), but there was also a tambourine...
Sad, sad, sad.
Date: Sun Jul 02 2017
From: Vic Biorseth
I would guess that Jimmy Akin was right, in that Vatican II did not come up with the actual new Mass; Pope Paul VI did that, after Vatican II. However, if you look at Bugnini scandals in the Liturgy page, radical changes were being proposed to the Liturgy leading up to, during and following Vatican II. Archbishop Annibale Bugnini heavily influenced and may indeed have practically written the Constitution On The Liturgy, which is a Vatican II document.
Jimmy Akin might be hard put to deny that the influence of the Liturgical developments going on during Vatican II had any affect on the final design of the Novus Ordo Mass.
The problem is that the Revealed Truth in the Depositum Fide does not change, and the Liturgy is supposed to reflect that full Truth to us, and bring us into it. However, Liturgy itself is not part of that protected Depositum Fide. Popes do have authority over Liturgy, and they can change it, and they have changed it.
I've wrestled with this particular question many times in many other webpages in this site, and I don't have a good answer to the problem. Pope Paul VI was within his rights as Pope to do what he did.
It's pointless to now ask if he should have done it. It's done.
Date: Sun Jul 02 12:36:06 2017
Location: San Dieg / CA / USA
You are 100% right in my book for what it's worth. The problem is that most Catholics don't care. They have become spiritually slothful. I do have a question - who is Martin Bucer?
Date: Sun Jul 02 2017
From: Vic Biorseth
According to Wikipedia, Martin Bucer was originally a Catholic Priest, like all the other Reformers; this one, Bucer, was a Dominican. In 1518 he had his vows annulled and began working for the "Reformations" and got himself excommunicated. He influenced the Lutheran, Calvinist and Anglican Reformations.
Date: Mon Jul 03 22:58:17 2017
From: Mike Gent
Location: Saratoga Springs/NY/USA
Just got back from a week in Ocean City,MD and this is what I found when looking for a Mass to attend.
"Joint Lutheran-Catholic Commemoration of the Reformation
Friday, June 2 at 7:30 pm at St. Luke: Join Bishop Malooly and Lutheran Bishop Gohl for this ecumenical evening prayer service featuring Taize music. WE will be praying the same prayers Pope Francis prayed with Lutheran World Federation in Lund, Sweden this past October." Catholics commemorating the Reformation with Protestants, you know, just like Pope Francis.
Date: Tue Jul 04 2017
From: Vic Biorseth
I believe it's just like Joan, above, said; it's spiritual slothfulness. The more Catholics first tolerate, then accommodate, and then cooperate and join with old, "established" heresy, which becomes a cultural heresy, the more spiritually slothful they become, or are made to be. Protestant falsehood becomes fused with the protected body of Catholic Truth in their minds, and they drift from the fullness of Catholic faith.
But it's only in their minds. Revealed Catholic Truth is objective, and real, and does not change.
No matter how popular or prevalent or dominant any heresy becomes, it remains heresy. Numbers don't change reality.
Date: Mon Jul 31 09:09:57 2017
Location: Hopkinsville, Kentucky usa
If there is no before Vat. 2 changes in Mass for me to attend, which there is not, I am under no moral obligation to attend the new faith mass of new church.
Date: Mon Jul 31 2017
From: Vic Biorseth
I fully sympathize with your position; however, you are indeed under a moral obligation to attend Mass on Sunday, in accordance with the Precepts of the Church. It's a mortal sin to miss Mass; you need to attend, and to periodically confess your sins, for the sake of your own soul and for the sake of others. Your example to others is important.
Go through the links in the Latin Mass page to find one somewhere within range. If there are none, I'm sorry, but you will just have to "Parish Shop" to find the most consistently proper Novus Ordo Mass that you can get to on Sundays.
I know how you feel, believe me. But this is not a new Church; it is the old one, with some new sinners in it. It is still the Church Christ founded, no matter how it is betrayed from within. There is only one true Church, and this is it, warts and all.
Sooner or later it will sort itself back out. Pray for it.
Date: Tue Aug 08 19:53:39 2017
Location: Bellevue, Ohio, USA
Unfortunately, it seems to be true... even by the fruits we see confirmation of it..
Here is more background and source material:
Date: Fri Nov 10 01:20:23 2017
From: myth buster
Location: Norfolk, VA, USA
I do not see how any reasonable person can attend a Novus Ordo Mass and not see its sacrificial nature. Considering that the congregation itself affirms the sacrificial nature of the Mass during the Offertory, only a depraved mind or one without the use of reason could deny that the Mass is a sacrifice, and those with a depraved mind stand condemned out of their own mouths.
Further, there is also the danger of exalting the priesthood too much, lest we forget that priests are sinners like us. What makes the priest holy and raised above the congregation is God's anointing, consecrating him as a vessel through which He administers the sacraments. It is not because of his personal holiness, but rather the gift of God that raises him above the people, and those whom the Lord makes great must be the servants of those they have authority over. I will not deny that there is danger in the Penitential Rite being seen as a substitute for sacramental Confession, but it also serves as an act of humility, wherein the priest pleads for God's mercy for himself, as well as for the congregation. Neither can a reasonable person complain about the lack of invocation of angels and saints when the Confetior includes "therefore, I ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord, our God."
The notion that the Eucharistic Prayer has suppressed the fact that Christ is the Victim is baseless. The priest prays that God "see the Victim whose death has reconciled the world to Himself." Afterwards, he addresses the congregation, "Behold the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sins of the world."
Concerning the doctrines taught in the Mass, your concern is misplaced. I will not deny that multitudes have been poorly catechized about salvation and the Four Last Things, but this is because of bad homilies, not the Mass itself. The congregation recites the Centurion Prayer before Communion, affirming their unworthiness and hope in Christ's mercy. The cycle of readings ensure that the congregation hears about Judgment Day on a regular basis from Scripture; the problem is that so often the clergy neglect to follow this up with good homilies. How is it possible for a priest to give a homily on the Parable of the Ten Virgins without once mentioning death or the Second Coming?
In conclusion, the loss of piety among the faithful is not the fault of the Novus Ordo, but rather the depraved minds of those who openly reject sound doctrine (first and foremost on marriage and marital relations), and those clergy who have fallen asleep on their watch. Are these not the days that Paul spoke of when "many shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons," and "men will not abide sound doctrine?" Lazy and heretical priests sooth sinners with false words of peace without repentance, while many refuse to listen to priests who do preach against sin. Heretics are allowed to teach children, and they corrupt them with strange doctrines. Even so, the Mass condemns heresy and upholds sound doctrine.
Date: Fri Nov 10 2017
From: Vic Biorseth
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. There is nothing in the Novus Ordo Mass that properly directs Catholic worship as well as does the Traditional Latin Mass. Nothing. There isn't even consistency in the Novus Ordo. Everything is Optional. Every Novus Ordo Parish celebrates the Mass a little differently than every other Novus Ordo Parish. Every Priest offers the Novus Ordo Mass a little differently than every other Priest. Every Novus Ordo Parish has it's own jealously guarded little area of lay-controlled liturgical tradition.
Lay people actually make decisions regarding Liturgy.
Could you even imagine a Traditional Latin Mass being modified to accommodate a "Special Mass" request, such as, a Clown Mass; a Balloon Mass; a Cowboy Mass; a Piza Mass; a Polka Mass; a Folk Music Mass; etc., etc., etc.?
Of course not. The Traditional Latin Mass is not up for modification or special cultural blending. Only the Novus Ordo does that sort of thing.
The Mass is all about the Eucharist, and the Eucharist is not at the center of the Novus Ordo Mass. The People are. It's people Mass. It is people-centric. That's why the Priest faces the people instead of the Tabernacle. That's why people receive Him standing instead of kneeling at the Communion Railing, and in the hand rather than on the tongue. That's why lay people just pick Him up and pass Him around.
And that's why Protestants are more comfortable at a Novus Ordo Mass than they are at a Traditional Latin Mass.
Wake up and smell the incense, Myth Buster.
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Refuting Perverted Catholicism
Opposing "soft" Catholicism, I'm OK - You're OK Catholicism, Cafeteria-Catholicism of the pick-and-choose variety, and the pure evil that seeks to pervert Catholicism from within, while wearing the mask of piety.
On going back to the Original Bible, after all these Revisions. The Douay-Rheims is the English translation of the original Vulgate, the world's first one-book Bible, put together by St. Jerome around 400 A.D. From now on, this is my Bible of reference.
The Institutional Church, Institutional Nations and Institutional Man. The Institutional Church, like any instituted nation, is a solid, fixed, objective thing. You can point to it and say "there it is". Institutional Man is "Institutional" by Natural Law.
Refuting Perverted Catholicism: defending the Church as the Center of all Truth. Refuting Perverted Catholicism at the Layman Level. If proper Catholic catechesis dies, all is lost.
Is the Novus Ordo Mass already a mostly Protestant Mass? A Protestant Mass? Excuse me? Was that really somebody's plan from the beginning?
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The Modernist Heresy: Western Man's Descent from Philosophy into Modernism. Modernism is the heresy of heresies, because it carries within it all previous heresies, being as it is a direct, frontal assault upon faith and all doctrine and dogma.
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Lucifer and the CCHD: how Lucifer’s disciples infected Catholic thinking, enjoyed Catholic funding and advanced evil in America.
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The anti cafeteria Catholic forum addresses weak-kneed, wimpy, inclusive, "Spirit of Vatican II" heterodox Catholicism. Refute these contentions if you can.
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My "Education" at the Athenaeum Of Ohio LPMP (Lay Pastoral Minstry Program).
The Athenaeum Of Ohio LPMP program was the required pre-requisite for entry into the Deaconate program in Archbishop Daniel E. Pylarczyk's Cincinnati Archdiocese.
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The overriding dissident agenda of Liberal Catholicism appeared sometimes mostly in teaching material, sometimes in teachers themselves, sometimes in both.
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A better name for the LPMP's Formation for Discipleship class: Catholic Dissent.
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Athenaeum courses consistently taught that the early Church condoned slavery.
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