Formerly the Thinking Catholic Strategic Center
January 11, 2017
In most dictionaries, they are near synonyms. If you look up the one, you will find the other describing it. The only real difference, in most dictionaries, is that Evangelizing seems to always refer to promoting Christian faith, solely. But both involve the process of convincing someone to join a religion they do not yet believe in or belong to.
I am a Catholic, and I am frequently accused of "Proselytizing", as if that were a bad thing. "You're just Proselytizing!" is the most frequently heard angry charge, which always just puzzles me, so I just ignore it and get right back to the most current point in the conversation. I'm often perhaps stubborn about sticking to the point until it is resolved.
OK, I'm Proselytizing. So what?
Some critics of Proselytism hold that Evangelizing is bringing people into the faith purely by describing the faith, and Proselytizing is bringing people into the faith more by challenging the validity of whatever erroneous faith they already hold.
Well, Jesus did that (John 4:22), and Paul did that (Acts 17:22-23), so why shouldn't I do it?
Some critics of Proselytism hold that Proselytism is "aggressive" Evangelizing of people of other faiths, by pronouncing that they are bound for hell unless they abandon their current belief and embrace the one true faith.
Well, is that not more true than false, in most cases? Is No Salvation Outside The Church a valid, standing Catholic doctrine, or not? Are we not supposed to even say it?
I challenge anyone to show me the Protestant Denomination that does not roundly condemn the Catholic Church while "Evangelizing" us. Yet they, or the Denominations they Denominated from, are the ones who broke ranks with us, the original Body Of Christ. How is it that we, when we point out their heresy, are the ones who are "Proselytizing" as opposed to "Evangelizing"?
Everyone has heard the TV Evangelists saying unless you pray the Jesus prayer, or are "born again" in an altar call, or are otherwise "saved", or have surrendered in some way to Jesus, that you are going to hell. I never heard anyone condemn any of that as Proselytizing.
Some of us are just not psychologically or spiritually equipped to do "soft" Evangelizing. All of us are not the same. While some of us, like me, may be more naturally geared toward attack mode against evil, we still try to keep the fires of Evangelism burning, but we're just not that good at it. To some of us, false religion or erroneous belief is part and parcel to evil, and recognizing that fact, we tend to be in attack mode much if not most of the time. The natural inclination for those like us is to not waste time on the obstinate and the unreasonable; to simply preach the unvarnished message, shake the dust and move on.
Everybody is not going to embrace the message. "Everybody" never did; "Everybody" never will. That's the way it is. We are called to preach the good news to all nations, but all nations are not necessarily inclined to accept it. Satan will have his share.
I don't know about you, but my biggest problem in this area involves discourse with fellow Catholics, not with non-Catholics. The last thing I want to do is to drive any Catholic away from the Church with harsh rhetoric. But there are just so many Catholics today who are just steeped in error, and in false Catholicism and even a near total lack of any sense of mortal sin that sometimes I just can't believe the conversations I'm having are with fellow Catholics.
There are millions of "Catholics" who don't believe that missing Mass is a mortal sin "any more". Untold millions of "Catholics" regularly use artificial contraception, and receive Communion just as regularly. The situation is currently exacerbated by the vagary of Pope Francis' teaching on marriage and the family. This Bishop welcomes all "irregulars" to the Communion Rail, that one does not; this Bishop sees mortal sin as black and white, that one sees unending shades of gray in everything. This Bishop holds fast to Doctrine, that one holds fast to "Conscience".
This is not merely poor or non-existent Catholic Catechesis. This is the flat out teaching of error. The laity are being divided by the radically opposing messages of different Bishops, within the same Church.
The Roman Catholic Church today does not speak with one voice.
It's worse than that. The Bishops are divided into hostile camps.
How is Church attendance doing in the most Liberal/Lenient dioceses?
And yet, with these cataclysmic doctrinal issues in debate, the biggest thing Catholics laymen seem to be dividing themselves on is mere Liturgy, of all things. I don't mean to downplay the importance of Liturgy, but compared to these other gigantic doctrinal issues, one would think that Liturgy would pale in comparison. But it does not. It grows.
We have, of course, the SSPX split, which took issue with any and all changes to the Liturgy of the Mass after Trent. Based on the Council of Trent, to whit:
"Any Pastor" here refers to "any Bishop". Pope St. Pius V backed that up in his Papal Bull Quo Primum, in which he backed up the above anathema in strong terms, as a Papal decree. Contained in his Bull was this;
"Us" in that sentence is the "royal" Us, meaning the reigning Pope. Further evidence that Popes, present and future, have final control over Liturgy, is presented elsewhere in the Bull, as here:
The Popes have dominion over the Liturgy of the Mass. Liturgy, in its entirety, did not come out of the original Revelation and is not part of the Depositum Fide. Other than the "This is my body" references (in Matt 26:26, Mark 14:22, Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24, etc.) the Liturgy of the Mass was "developed" by the Church in accord with the original handed-on Tradition and with her authority to bind and to loose.
Up until the Council of Trent, there were multiple liturgical forms of the Mass being offered. Pius V tried to put an end to that, and get the whole Church following the same Traditional Liturgical Norms.
After Trent, there were updates made to the Missal by Pope Clement VIII in 1604, Pope Urban VIII in 1634, Pope Leo XIII in 1884, and Pius X in 1920. The original 1570 Missal was authorized by Pope Pius V; all of these were minor updates, revisions and additions to rubrics.
The 1962 Missal was authorized by Pope John XXIII. The 1969 Missal was authorized by Pope Paul VI. This "New Mass", known as the Novus Ordo, is theoretically what caused all the Liturgical furor that came to be known as the Liturgical Wars.
Note this well:
Almost none of what we normally see today in the way the Novus Ordo Mass as regularly offered was authorized by Paul VI or by the Council. It's not in the documents, it's not in the Missal, it's not in the order of the mass. It's just not there.
Individual Bishops and Political Parties of Bishops, like the USCCB, just made it up on their own. They took it upon themselves to "innovate" and radically modify the Liturgy of the Mass. Among their innovations:
These, and more, of what were and are abuses of authorized Liturgy have become "normal" in America because they were allowed to become so widespread that they became commonplace. These completely unauthorized practices are now habitual and expected, all over America. No Pope did this, and no Council did this. Bishops did it, on their own. Doing exactly what Pius V said for them not to do.
Everybody seems to be pleased that the worst abuses - the clown Masses, cowboy Masses, etc. - have largely disappeared except in the most Liberal dioceses. But few look at what's been left in their wake.
We can testify to the beauty and majesty of the Novus Ordo Mass prayed in exact conformity with the Order Of The Mass, as offered at Assumption Grotto Church, which also offers the Latin Mass. It's the Novus Ordo Mass, but get this:
The beauty, and the awesome majesty of the Latin Mass is retained in its entirety. At Churches like this, it doesn't matter so much whether you pray the 1962 Mass or the Novus Ordo; both are equally uplifting and awe inspiring offerings to God. We personally prefer the old Mass because that is the Mass of our childhood and young adulthood. But the Novus Ordo is a beautiful Mass too, and perfectly acceptable to us.
But we, like millions, have been forced to compromise, and seek out a "better than most" Novus Ordo Parish. We are lucky to belong to one for many years, an ethnic Lithuanian sort of sub-Parish of a larger Church. Even with the "common abuses" spoken of above, it's a good and holy Catholic Church.
Again, getting back to Proselytizing v Evangelizing, just try to point out the unauthorized practices in the typical Novus Ordo Mass in any typical Novus Ordo Church at all, and watch the fangs and claws come out. In trying to point out the truth of the matter, you will be accused of "driving people away" by encouraging return to Catholic Tradition. When I believe the exact opposite to be true.
How has Church attendance done since the Novus Ordo "innovations"?
Just the formality of a properly offered Catholic Mass inspires a greater reverence and sense of being in the Presence in the laity. The Mass is supposed to be a quite formal event. We are supposed to be humbled to our knees. Much if not all of that is lost in the more "informal" and even "casual" Novus Ordo Mass.
I believe Traditional offering of the Mass, whether Novus Ordo or 1962, is the best evangelization tool in the Church's arsenal. Kind of like preaching the unvarnished truth on doctrine. To me, the two things go together. People are yearning for truth. For reality.
So, am I Proselytizing when I say these things, or am I Evangelizing?
You tell me.
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Date: Mon Sep 18 14:21:23 2017
Location: Brandon, Ms, US
Ok, as a Catholic, I was with you in spite of the fact that a little study will show that there is a vast difference between biblical proselytizing and evangelism, regardless of the modern webster connotation. Many times proselytizing yields "false conversion" with no particular loyalty to or love for Christ, but rather a sort of secularly expedient act of temporary contrition. I was with you until I learned that you were in fact speaking of the Body of Christ from other traditions. Yes my brother protestants are members of the Body of Christ. Many of them will assure you that as individual believers, they aren't protesting anything. So it seems that a bit more study would be in order. However, I support your evangelistic gift. Please just point that pistol at unbelievers, not different parts of the same body, we don't want to wound ourselves.
Date: Mon Sep 18 2017
From: Vic Biorseth
For me, proselytizing or evangelizing, whichever you prefer, involves lighting the way with truth. The target of the effort will come into the Truth on his own, or not at all. Some of us are better at it than others, there are many ways to go about it, but I am not a touchy-feely, super-sensitive, emotional kind of guy. I get to the point pretty quickly, with reason and argument and evidence. And I don't waste time.
These "other traditions" within the body of Christ may not be heretics, personally, but they are following heresies. They may not personally be protesting anything, but they follow the same heresies of the original Protestants. Sola Scriptura is a defined Protestant heresy. Sola Fide is a defined Protestant heresy.
Read the documents of Trent. Read the Syllabus of Errors. Put them together, and see where most of Protestantism is going.The same direction as Marxism. Holding that followers of the various denominations are perfectly accommodated into the fullness of Christian Truth by being members of the same Catholic Body of Christ is actually the mortal sin of Indifferentism.
Sorry, Jim, but it does indeed make a very big difference what one believes.
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Never be lukewarm.
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Do not allow our common destiny as a whole people to just happen without your input.
Seek the Truth; find the Way; live the Life; please God, and live forever.
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Marxists love crisis, and they love an oil spill crisis most of all. Marxists even create and drive crisis. Their favorite crisis of all must be the Oil Spill Crisis, which is even better than a Banking Crisis.
American Military Assault Weapons originally intended in the 2nd Amendment. To miss the point of the 2nd Amendment is to miss the point of the whole Constitution.
For God and Country – More Thoughts on America, and on National Existence. For God and Country: Comparisons of martyrdom and heroism, Sovereign Nationhood Vs. Internationalism, distinct people-hood Vs. the Global Village, and Godliness Vs. godlessness.
The Godless Left leads the young and naive to their utopian Hell. For an honest comparison of the effects on youth, we need to look to the history of the Godless Left versus the Religious Right.
The Rabbi Meir Kahane Open Letter to the World is a must read. No decent world history course is complete without the Rabbi Meir Kahane Open Letter to the World.
Aleksandr I.Solzhenitsyn warns the American Worker and American organized labor. Solzhenitsyn speaks to us as a worker from the “Worker’s Paradise” of Communism; words of warning for all who understand the meaning of the word Liberty.
World Revolution returns with a vengeance: the rebirth of Marxism. Marxist world revolution returns, and faces far less opposition than in 1848 or the period between the Great Wars.
Our argument against public despair, hopelessness and pessimism re the future. Despair is a mortal sin, the opposite of the virtue of hope; it is a sin unto the death of the soul, a repudiation and rejection of God’s grace.
On Threats to America's National Existence. A look at the nature of our national existence, what makes us America, physical threats to that, and the possibility of just going out of existence.
On the ethics of language: English dictionary Vs. Political-Correctness taboos. Language evolves, yet morals are (or should be) fixed. This poses questions re the ethics of language.
Thinking Catholic direction: threats to America, Church, Ethos, even History. The Thinking Catholic Direction is multi-faceted, facing threats to American National Existence, Catholic Liturgy, our common Guiding Ethos - emphasis changes to meet the threat of the moment.
Catholics learn and practice Glossalalia, in the Life In The Spirit seminars. Life in the Spirit seminars, fueling the Catholic Charismatic renewal, bring tongue-speaking "Glossalalia" and being "Slain in the Spirit", into Catholicism.
The website is going on hold for at least the next five weeks. Business calls, and I must respond. Will be traveling, and not taking the laptop this time.
Current Website Status. Still too busy for individual responses to questions, comments & criticisms.
Our 2006 Ohio Voter Guide. The choices are quite clear, and the 2006 Ohio Voter Guide was easy to produce
On carrying my Lord, Jesus Christ, in my pocket. As a Eucharistic Minister, I am on occasion carrying the Lord Jesus in my pocket. It's a wondrous thing.
A 2006 Christmas and Hanukkah wish. May the Holy Days we celebrate remind us all of who we are, and how we are different from other peoples.
Current Democratic Party platform reveals anti-Semitic streak among Liberals. In their voting, their speechifying, and in the slant of their controlled mainstream media reporting, the current Democratic Party Platform is made clear to all observers.
The "Left", and The DaVinci Code, The Passion, and Cartoons of Mohammed. You can tell a lot about a movement by its public words. The Passion? "Unreservedly Bad." The DaVinci Code? "Unreservedly Good." Anything to do with Islam? "No Comment."
Who's driving the Health Care bus? Health insurance companies grading doctors? Health insurance companies grading doctors: a legitimized conflict of interest. A preparatory step toward the nationalization of the health insurance industry?
On the forced use of medical boiler plate language rather than simple notes. The "little dictators" from insurance companies and government bureaucracies force MDs to use stilted, verbose, medical boiler plate language in their own documentation.
Home For Christmas 2008. Website Getting Active Again.
Hydrogen power could be, and should be, the wave of our automotive future.Any move toward hydrogen power is a move toward a cleaner and more efficient fuel, and away from our dangerous dependency on oil.
Thoughts in remembrance of 09/11/2001, five years later. The changing shape of the war, the changing shape of the enemy.
The Jewish Shabbat. Description of Jewish Shabbat (Sabbath) from my Holy Land item supplier.
Kerry lies again, and then lies about his lies, in concert with the SLIMC.There he goes again! Kerry lies again and again about American servicemen and veterans; he just can't help himself.
Kerry's Lies: The Old, Vietnam-Era Anti-War Chickens are Comming Home to Roost. POW Lawsuit Could Force Kerry To Come Clean - by George "Bud" Day, Chairman, Vietnam Veterans Legacy Foundation.
What's going on with Mel Gibson? Is he really an anti-Semite?I am surprised that Mel Gibson is an alcolholic. But I am never surprised at any words that come out of the mouth of any drunk.
Still Worrying Over NuVo Consequences. The Holidays have gone by, several days have passed, and the SANE NuVo Initiative still stands pat.
The Dem's October Surprise involves another flip-flop of their public "standard" The clearly pro-sodomy Party that openly seeks the "Gay" vote goes Victorian for another pre-election October Surprise ploy.
Some Problems with NuVo: the so-called Null-Vote Initiative. A "philosophical" movement aimed at keeping religious conservatives from voting? Seriously? Let me state my problems with NuVo.
Come, let us sit and reason together. Jews and Christians of various stripe and spot can say to each other, 'Come, let us sit and reason together.' But we can't do that with the Moslems.
Regarding SANE works dropping NuVo: Nul Vote Initiative dies with a whimper. If you can't really present a good argument, sit down. On SANE Works dropping the NuVo Initiative: a program that works hard to SOUND pro-American while ACTING to oppose American National Existence.
Even experts grossly underestimate the Marxist zeal of the American Left. The sharp Left turn happened in the Hoover-FDR era, and the Marxism of the American Left has been deepening ever since.
Thinking American, in a nutshell: When one has lots to say, but time is limited. The older I get, the busier I get. Answering multiple questions as a thinking American, but in a hurry.
"We are an Easter People, and Hallelujah is our Song." (John Paul the Great). Our absolutely unique and singular Easter story, and the incredible force with which it struck human history.
Witnessing, grieving and weeping for our dieing culture. What might it take to call a whole people back from the brink of cultural death?
If we have an inherent right to something, then, who must supply it? Rights and Responsibilities exist in paired sets; a right does not exist in the absence of a related responsibility. If indeed we have a right to our job, then, someone must provide it. Who?
So how come we have all these homeless people if our system is so great? The strong "Utopian Idealist" firmly believes that absolute worldly perfection is actually possible. Therefore, there should never be any such thing as a hungry or homeless person.
Taking a look at Illegal Immigration and Tax Problem solutions. In our view, the minimum wage and income tax have outlived their usefulness, and only contribute to the illegal alien problem.
First journal / blog entries when the thinking catolic blog first opened up. Notes to readers about what I was doing.
On-going WebSite work and planned WebPages as of 09/07/2006 Adding items to book store.
Vic's busted finger status - life goes on. Another busted finger status report, since the original one rolled off of the 50-entry BLOG update records.
Website Status as of 02/05/2009. No more Bookstore; no more Contact Me; no more complexity.
Website Status 03-09-2009. Just a note to bring you up to date on website status 03-09-2009.
Website Status 04/06/2009. Busy driving daily now; most website work will be weekend and as available.
The Plastic Bags and Eco Doom theory: will plastic bags end life as we know it? Plastic Bag and Eco Doom predictions tell us that plastic grocery and garbage bags will still be buried in the land fills and dumps a thousand years from now. Well … so what?
Farewell Smokey Biorseth; Rest In Peace. Hello Coal Biorseth; Welcome Home. As we were laying our beloved Smokey Biorseth to rest in his grave beside the lilies, a carbon-copy of Smokey, in younger form, emerged from the lilies.
Honky Biorseth really runs this house. If you want to know what's in any cabinet in the house, just ask Honky Biorseth.
Kill the illegal alien marketplace, and illegal aliens will leave on their own. Why should we "imagine" life with no Mexico? Shouldn't the Mexicans be trying to imagine life without the USA?
More Marxist infiltration of higher education. Public school and the media are not the only places dominated by Marxist thought; even Catholic institutions are infected.
Of Families and Fortunes, and Inheritance Vs. Redistribution. Families and Fortunes are despised by Marxists, because Marxism demonizes the family, demonizes fortunes, and even demonizes profit.
Website Status Update 11/09/10 Just a Website status update; where we are and where we’re going.
Regarding the 2010 Tax Deal Pledge Breaker: Pledge? What Pledge? How can Republican deal makers even face us? We need to hang a Tea Party target on all professional politicians for 2012.
Pray for peace in Jerusalem, and for deliverance of Israel from harm. To pray for peace in Jerusalem is to pray for deliverance from Obama.
A tale of Promised Financial Melt-Down Debt Ceiling Nonsense and Happy Marxists. Everyone, on both sides, believes the Debt Ceiling Nonsense. Why?
God and Nature: on the Nature of Things, established by the Creator of Things. God and Nature: on man’s Perversion of the Nature of Things, even with the best of intentions.
Our Ohio voter Guide for the 2012 Election. The 2l012 Ohio Voter Guide – The Choices Have Never Been Clearer, or more critical.
Evangelization enters the animal kingdom with the first bear prayer. It is fitting that the first bear prayer would be a prayer of thanksgiving.
Is the Internet down in Lithuania? Sudden loss of Lithuanian traffic suggests the internet is down in Lithuania.
The rise of the Femi Nazi Green Beret, and the decline of military victory. The first Femi Nazi Green Beret will be awarded out of fairness, not excellence.
Food Insurance: Is this stuff really any good? All of us conspiracy-theorizing, global-calamity doomsday-preppers need their Food Insurance.
We just had to try to do Robert Irvine's Plastic Wrapped Baby Back Ribs. Put plastic wrapped baby back ribs in the oven? What? Are you nuts?
Thoughts on the first Eucharist, established by the Last Supper. The first Eucharist was recognized by the Apostles for what it was on that holiest Holy Thursday.
Get behind these Tea Party Candidates. The Constitution is not going to be restored to legal preeminence unless we replace leadership incumbents of BOTH PARTIES.
Ecce homo; Behold the man. Ecce Homo. Behold the Innocent Lamb, who takes away the sins of the world.
When your system slows down or hangs, it's time for a Total System Reboot. America, the World, and even the Catholic Church may need a Total System Reboot.
"We belong to the Church militant; and She is militant because on earth the powers of darkness are ever restless to encompass Her destruction. Not only in the far-off centuries of the early Church, but down through the ages and in this our day, the enemies of God and Christian civilization make bold to attack the Creator’s supreme dominion and sacrosanct human rights.”--Pope Pius XII
"It is not lawful to take the things of others to give to the poor. It is a sin worthy of punishment, not an act deserving a reward, to give away what belongs to others."--St. Francis of Assisi
Truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.—Winston Churchill
The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.—Ayn Rand
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